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so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Sat, 14 October 2006 21:49 Go to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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is it better to put those excess points into wider hab (or immunity..not sure if immunity translates to more than just spreading the bars but it seems to)..or into a higher pop growth rate? Though it seems with a higher pop growth rate i end up needing to buy stations before i have ultras

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Sun, 15 October 2006 01:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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knightpraetor wrote on Sun, 15 October 2006 03:49

is it better to put those excess points into wider hab (or immunity..not sure if immunity translates to more than just spreading the bars but it seems to)..or into a higher pop growth rate? Though it seems with a higher pop growth rate i end up needing to buy stations before i have ultras


Hi,

I prefer putting the points into hab. AR doesn't need 19%, IMO about 15 is enough.
And yes, choose an immunity. That's fairly standard for AR. But: I wouldn't choose 1/2500 at all, except with a race with 3 (!) immunities. I haven't played one myself, but I think that 1-immune ARs are usually better.
You should perhaps read http://groups.google.de/group/rec.games.computer.stars/brows e_frm/thread/38c19fb5c5b16654/c76d9b20517c76e2?tvc=1&hl= de#c76d9b20517c76e2. This is one of the most famous / infamous AR races and the base for most actually played ARs. You should also read the AR guide (http://www.starsfaq.com/articles/ar_guide.htm)

Hope that helps,

Andreas / wizard

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Mon, 16 October 2006 00:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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There's a couple of big threads here which include lengthy discussions comparing 2i 1/25 eff with 1i 1/10 eff... Find them and have a read.

My opinion, based on my own investigations and from following those threads, is that they seem fairly well balanced choices. It mostly comes down to your own play style and the particular game you will be taking the race into. Both have advantages and disavantages. The (resource) economy potential is pretty similar between them.


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 00:26]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Mon, 16 October 2006 02:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
knightpraetor wrote on Sun, 15 October 2006 03:49

is it better to put those excess points into wider hab (or immunity..

I'd say keep with divisor 10. Div 25 is good for games with 50+ planets per player. In smaller games is the race just too slow.

Quote:

not sure if immunity translates to more than just spreading the bars but it seems to)..or into a higher pop growth rate?

For ARs both. The AR resource formula depends heavily on the quality of hab. Immunity gives 100% hab in that hab field, so resource output is automatically bigger, as is the pop growth. But for dual-immunity ARs lack points, so they need to cripple themself somewhere. Usual point mines are res divisor and pop growth rate, as they both have lower impact on performance than they have on other races. But taken together they make race slow. IMO too slow for normal PBEM games.

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 02:19]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Mon, 16 October 2006 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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so basically from this i take it my race design (1-immune) probably did not need the 1/20 resource divisor..wonder where i put it all..probably into hab without taking another immunity, i guess if i'd done 1/25 i could have gotten another immunity?

but anyways, critique away..i obviously didn't do a very good job just playing with it off the top of my head. i did try to glance over one AR article first, but i guess it wasn't enough

race spec:

IFE, NRSE, TT, ARM, IS, RS, 19% growth, grav immunity, small temp range (-124 to -20), medium rad range(45-83), 1/9 planets habitable.

1/20 resource divisor

50% less NWC
75% extra PEB

so it looks like i put all the extra points into growth...and i shouldn't have? is it more effective to get more hab than to get growth then?

my game had 30 planets per player roughly


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 02:38]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Mon, 16 October 2006 02:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Yeah, and you have a lot of good LRTs. I'd usually only take 2 of TT, ARM, IFE and ISB... Which two depends on the game and my mood.

You've certainly got a lot of toys to play with Smile Perhaps the TT will offset the 1i 1/20 to an extent.

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Mon, 16 October 2006 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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the thing I"m having trouble with making an AR25 design effectively. Growth doesn't seem that good, so where to throw the points. Hab? But another post on this place suggested not getting more than 1/4 or 1/3 planets...so then go for double immunity with the massive points of 1/25?

i just don't understand what people do with all the points except either get more techs cheap (seems a waste) or get a lot of LRTs. TT isn't enough to burn points unless you do something to hab as well, and if you spread your hab out a lot then each terraforming point is worth less. So does that mean i'm better off taking one bar really small and the other really large? (and the final immune of course)

wow so somehow i skipped 2 replies when reading this post..weird...anyways, so it seems most people do put the points into a second immunity..it seems the only logical thing to do..it's between either taking a second immunity or doing wide hab + ARM + TT + slightly higher growth rate


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 17:51]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Mon, 16 October 2006 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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The problem to what you seemingly stumble upon here is you search "best" and "ultimate". There is no such thing in Stars! Wink Presence of (hidden ) ultimate strategies is common in other strategy games. That makes them quickly too boring. Stars players on the other hand often complain its too addictive and takes time to play so makes them ineffective in their other activities. Very Happy

[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 23:31]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Tue, 17 October 2006 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Yes, well said. This game is a balance of compromises. Fairly well balanced in general, so different choices can shine in different situations. There are a few mistakes to be made, which is what you seek to avoid, but it seems that everything in this game has a counter strategy, so there can be no best.


Back on topic, when you take 1/25 you need to think about the affect this has on your race, and how to deal with that problem so you can profit from the points gained... 1/25 means you get only 63.2% of the resources from each colony that you would with an identical 1/10 race colony. So your first task is to deal with that loss, and then to see how to benefit. You get a lot of points, so you can get some big choices.... Let's think about a few of them:

1) Growth rate - a higher growth rate means more pop, to distribute. With the same number of colonies you'd need 2.5x the population to get the same resources per planet. A 800,000 pop 1/10 starbase generates the same resources as a 2,000,000 pop 1/25 maxxed ultrastation! Ouch. In a nutshell that shows how while growth rate is significant, it's nowhere near as critical to an AR as it is to the conventional PRTs.

2) Wider habs -> Quantity of planets -> if we can settle 1.5x as many planets we'll have nearly as much resources, assuming the same mix of planet values. Not a bad approach. If your growth rate also provides the 1.5x colonists needed to fill them, then this is looking good.

3) Extra immunity -> Quality of planets & quantity -> going 2 immune instead of 1 immune gives a big boost to the AR, because of the double bonus - more planets AND better planets. You also save in terra costs, helping to ease the pain of the slower start resulting from 63% resources. It's hard to quantify the full benefit of this one without doing some research and I don't have time to give you figures right now. Check out this link for a hab generator so you can see what to expect... http://home20.inet.tele.dk/craebild/hab_range_tool/habcalc.h tml

4) TT
...



[Updated on: Tue, 17 October 2006 01:10]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Tue, 17 October 2006 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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ya, it's mainly the two immune choice vs greater habs question that bothers me. You'd think the two would have about the same effect and be easy to compare

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Tue, 17 October 2006 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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knightpraetor wrote on Tue, 17 October 2006 23:12

ya, it's mainly the two immune choice vs greater habs question that bothers me. You'd think the two would have about the same effect and be easy to compare


2-immune is much better (and more expensive) than wide habs of similar "1 in x" habitability, as the individual colonies will have better habitability values and you will only have to terraform in one field to improve them dramatically. Both of which result in a direct and immediate resource advantage for AR. 2-imm (or 3-imm) is absolutely fantastic for AR. The only problem is what you have to sacrifice to get it...

I would say that for AR, 2-imm 1-narrow is better than 1-imm 2-verywide. The latter will have more colonies, but the former will have *better* colonies...

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Tue, 17 October 2006 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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looking back on my race there is a lot i would do differently. The growth seems pretty useless, but also as i read elsewhere taking more LRTs means each further one costs more. Does anyone know by how much?

the other thing that i don't know if i would change is rad immunity vs grav immunity. With grav immunity i don't have to research prop, but RAD immunity is more useful overall in getting a better initial planet distribution.

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Wed, 21 February 2007 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 17 October 2006 06:49



But in some recent experiments I've been getting great results from 2 and 3 immune races, after making some radical changes to the way I actually played the races in testbeds.


3 immune AR giving good results?

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Wed, 21 February 2007 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 00:25

Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 17 October 2006 06:49



But in some recent experiments I've been getting great results from 2 and 3 immune races, after making some radical changes to the way I actually played the races in testbeds.


3 immune AR giving good results?



It performs a lot better than I'd previously thought. To make it work, it required some big changes to the way I was playing... For example don't even try to wait for 25% hold lol. Export and colonise aggressively from the start, and it can produce some startling results - it's VERY FAST in early game (into the 2420's) but suffers in mid-game from sluggish growth... Should become awesome in the late game, but I would expect the race to be killed in that long mid-game period while it struggles with it's extreme low growth rate.

I took some of the same design and play styles into a 2-immune AR and found a nice boost in performance...

I eventually dug further and experimented with using the concepts I'd learned in a 1-immune race. What I found was that a race I wouldn't even have bothered testbedding before, plays nicely...

Quite amusing really - I've previously been a big advocate of 1i AR races. Then I experimented with 3i and 2i, found strength... Then stole the best ideas I found from those styles to make a better 1i Wink I must be a 1i fanboi Wink

The 1i race is in a game right now, so I don't want to go into more detail... It does feel a lot more robust than my last AR outing. It had a poor start, but still managed to chew over some quite serious attempts to hurt it pre-weap12. It's currently 2470 and the top ranked 3i HE over on the other side of the universe is waving a pitchfork and calling it a monster. I don't believe him and am waving my own pitchfork right back at him, but my fingers are crossed that I will be proven wrong. Wink
...

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Thu, 22 February 2007 02:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Carn wrote on Wed, 21 February 2007 14:25

3 immune AR giving good results?

Extremely good! 25k @ 2500. Crying

BR, Iztok

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Thu, 22 February 2007 05:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 02:59

Export and colonise aggressively from the start, and it can produce some startling results - it's VERY FAST in early game (into the 2420's) but suffers in mid-game from sluggish growth... Should become awesome in the late game, but I would expect the race to be killed in that long mid-game period while it struggles with it's extreme low growth rate.


Colony Ship with w5 engine cost 41 resources. red planet with 2200 produces around 8 resources (en 5). But you spend 35 kt iron and 30 kt germ or so.
Counting iron as germ, this would equal 15 facs for 4 kt germ and cost 2.5 and efficiency 5.
So for AR all uninhabitated planets are possibilities for mineral intensive but fast repaying facs(and switch of terraform for reds).

So as long as you do not mind minerals as an AR colonize everything, no need for scouting.

For 3i this changes drastically, 2200 produce 33(more 28 due to pop loss on HW) resources with en 5. This means building colonies is for 3i the same as for others building facs with cost 2.5 and effciency 15-20. So just as normal race produces facs until out of germ, a 3i AR(and to lesser extent all ARs) produces colony ships until out of minerals - and do not waste anything on scouts, scrap the initial one.

And this is the reason, why 3i AR must have 50 points leftover on min con and ARM, because that allows to build far more colonizers before research in con and elec for miners need to be done.

Of course this is only true for eff 1/10(which 3i and 1i have).
Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 02:59


The 1i race is in a game right now, so I don't want to go into more detail... It does feel a lot more robust than my last AR outing. It had a poor start, but still managed to chew over some quite serious attempts to hurt it pre-weap12. It's currently 2470 and the top ranked 3i HE over on the other side of the universe is waving a pitchfork and calling it a monster.

The others did something wrong if 3i HE and AR are leading the pack.
...



[Updated on: Thu, 22 February 2007 05:30]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Thu, 22 February 2007 05:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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iztok wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 08:06

Hi!
Carn wrote on Wed, 21 February 2007 14:25

3 immune AR giving good results?

Extremely good! 25k @ 2500. Crying

BR, Iztok



I thought he was talking about a testbed with robotoid AI, i think these are much better, as they will show if you're race is definitely to slow or far spread.

A 3i AR can get 10-20k resources in 2450 in an empty testbed, but put a robotoid AI there and you're 2450 resources will at least be halved and you actually have to do something to avoid losing.
A typical CA monster on the other hand will probably show little difference in resources in 2450 with or without AI present.


[Updated on: Thu, 22 February 2007 05:29]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Thu, 22 February 2007 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 21:14

For 3i this changes drastically, 2200 produce 33(more 28 due to pop loss on HW) resources with en 5. This means building colonies is for 3i the same as for others building facs with cost 2.5 and effciency 15-20. So just as normal race produces facs until out of germ, a 3i AR(and to lesser extent all ARs) produces colony ships until out of minerals - and do not waste anything on scouts, scrap the initial one.
certainly
And this is the reason, why 3i AR must have 50 points leftover on min con and ARM, because that allows to build far more colonizers before research in con and elec for miners need to be done.

Mmmm, wrong assumption. ARM is certainly handy, but 50 points to min concs are not needed. They would only really help in situations where you will be dependent on HW mining in early game, but in the case of 3i HE with highly aggressive colonisation the HW will not be producing much more minerals than anywhere else. Also you are overstating the cost of colonisation, - if you mix in some small freighters or coloniser hull boosters then not only you can ship population out a little faster but you can also ship the leftover minerals from colonisation back to the HW. In my best 3i test, my HW population quite quickly fell to the point where it was no larger than any other colony (<10,000 pop) This method produces a nice amount of minerals, as AR population mining is another formula based on the square root of population, so all those tiny colonies produce a decent flow of minerals when taken together.

I can outperform my fastest -f JOAT through to 2420 with a 3i AR. It's the period between there and the mid-late game that the performance is highly questionable, as once your colony spread slows you start to become more dependent on that crushingly low 6% PGR. That is why I probably wouldn't take a 3i AR into a real game, I'm willing to exchange a faster development in mid game for a lower peak.

BTW, I was testing with multiple Robotoid AIs present... And was able
...



[Updated on: Thu, 22 February 2007 20:51]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Fri, 23 February 2007 01:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 11:20

A 3i AR can get 10-20k resources in 2450 in an empty testbed

Please show me one such testbed and I'll name you a Stars! god and worship you forever. Not Worthy

We're talking about 6% or 7% PGR. With AccBBS the 6% starts with 55k pop, that would with best pop management (~5.8%) grow to about 1M. If you'd manage to spread them equally accross 50 planets, assumming no pop losses in transit and unlimited minerals for freighters, would that give you 6.6k resources.

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Fri, 23 February 2007 03:35]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Fri, 23 February 2007 04:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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iztok wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 07:55

Hi!
Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 11:20

A 3i AR can get 10-20k resources in 2450 in an empty testbed

Please show me one such testbed and I'll name you a Stars! god and worship you forever. Not Worthy



Brave statement without asking what testbed i'm talking about.
I prefer small normal, as tiny packed leads to favouring IFE less wide habs and small packed favors narrow IFE habs.


iztok wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 07:55


We're talking about 6% or 7% PGR. With AccBBS the 6% starts with 55k pop, that would with best pop management (~5.8%) grow to about 1M. If you'd manage to spread them equally accross 50 planets, assumming no pop losses in transit and unlimited minerals for freighters, would that give you 6.6k resources.

BR, Iztok


Tiny packed might get 10k, i have a small normal game with several AIs. which forced me to stop colonizing in 2430 with 30 planets and i got 6500 k in 2450. With tiny packed and 60 planets that might just give 10k
Small normal i've just got one to 2450 with 12500, but with 30 iron con, with high iron, i could get 14K-15K(Out of laziness i didn't ship any pop later on, that might give another 1000).
And small packed with high ironium start(>90) i think 18K-20K is possible.

Anyone i can send my game files with 12.5 K in 2450 for uploading - i like worshippers:) ?


(Never i would use my 3i AI in a standard game, i even lose some planets to AI in 2455-2465. Therefore i have AI in my testbeds - if they cause problems the race is broken beyond repair. And i'm certainly not losing towards AI, i just lost 3 planets and in 2478 i have jugger deathstars everywhere, 3000 kt fountain and 500 mines equivalent above every planet)
...



[Updated on: Fri, 23 February 2007 04:56]

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Fri, 23 February 2007 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 02:43



Mmmm, wrong assumption. ARM is certainly handy, but 50 points to min concs are not needed. They would only really help in situations where you will be dependent on HW mining in early game, but in the case of 3i HE with highly aggressive colonisation the HW will not be producing much more minerals than anywhere else.



I've not done the maths, but i 5 kt mining modules make mies cost 10 and need 6 turns to get iron back. The easy researchable 18 kt bot can only be build on HW, as building SBs in lot of places is a huge waste of resources. Therefore main mining early on is done on HW, which then is optimised if a lot of pop stays at HW till 2440 - at least if resources maxed in 2450 is the only parameter relevant.

Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 02:43


Also you are overstating the cost of colonisation, - if you mix in some small freighters or coloniser hull boosters then not only you can ship population out a little faster but you can also ship the leftover minerals from colonisation back to the HW.


These maths realy get complicated - spending iron in freighters improves pop distribution, but lessens the number of worlds.
In my 12.5K in 2450 testbed i have 102 planets.

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Fri, 23 February 2007 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 05:14

The others did something wrong if 3i HE and AR are leading the pack.

You're quite correct. The 3i HE found a WM friend to protect him and had little trouble expanding, and nobody who was in a position to stop him did so. I would have, but was in a war on another front and would have had to fight through the WM to get to the HE... that didn't seem possible at the time.

The AR found a SD friend to shield him and their habs allowed them to cohabit nicely, so the SD was under no pressure to contain the AR race. There was also external pressure encouraging the SD to allow the AR to develop freely so he could assist against the mutual foes.

Now, on topic - I have found that the lower growth rate of the 2I and 3I ARs wouldn't support fast and viable spreading as well. I test in small packed, small because you can't use tiny if you want to compare results with IT and PP races (unless the target game is to be tiny), and packed because that seems to be how most games are set.

My few 3I AR tests topped out at not quite 10k resources by 2450, mostly the spread was limited by insufficient iron. 2I tests went better, typically reaching 15-20k resources. Iron was still crippling the race, though, so I don't think any of them would have been viable for a real game. My 1I races didn't do so well at first, but I finally learned that growth rates of 16% and 17% were slowing down the start far too much. I ended up staying with 19% and 20% races and did much better.

I was able to keep enough mining at the HW to provide a steady stream of freighters to spread the pop with while the colonies were set to either building miners (once you have one worth building) or doing research, depending on what mineral concentrations the system had. And it's nice to hit energy 6 in 2404; depending on the extent to which I colonize and research con tech, energy 10 comes anywhere from 2409 (with nearby good greens) to 2416 (with very heavy colonization of red worlds).

With 19% or 20% gro
...

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Sat, 24 February 2007 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Carn wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 10:50

Brave statement without asking what testbed i'm talking about.
I prefer small normal...

I admit I did a mistake. I've fully forgotten the pure performance testbeds without limitations. Just running some spreadsheet simulations show that from 100 planets with various degrees of population 1M pop can generate 12k resources with En around 15.

Quote:

Anyone i can send my game files with 12.5 K in 2450 for uploading - i like worshippers:) ?

My mail addres here on AH is a valid one.

BR, Iztok

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Sat, 24 February 2007 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Marduk wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 22:13





My few 3I AR tests topped out at not quite 10k resources by 2450, mostly the spread was limited by insufficient iron.



therefore i said, that 3i ar must have arm and should have many points leftover for min conc

Marduk wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 22:13



(with very heavy colonization of red worlds).



as i said, this is from a resource point of view very efficient compared to factory building of normal races.

Marduk wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 22:13


With 19% or 20% growth rate, you end up unable to keep up with your population.



then you shouldn't use 20%, as the step from 19 to 20 is very expensive - if the pop cannot be ditributed anyway, wider habs will be better.

Marduk wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 22:13




More population means more minerals - so much more relative to lower growth ARs that even if you're light on miners you can field effective fleets from the minerals your population is producing.
...
I found ARM to be not at all worthwhile if you ended up with decent iron concentrations on your HW or early colonies;



my 'must have arm and points for min conc' is only a requirement for low growth ar, because they must spread a lot, before their pop starts to mine a lot, and have to support those 2500 people forts with minerals for first miners, because by themselve they take forever to produce a miner. btw this is another reason that, if one dares to play 3i ar, one needs arm - the space dock can build the 5kt bots to get minerals for sb or ultras, so the bigger miners can be build. if one has to drop enough minerals to each planet, so he can build an sb, before they start mining, one is nearly lost against the ai.

Marduk wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 22:13





I tried LSP a couple of times, it seemed like a good idea with the spreading benefit. But it did horrible things to the performance. Getting energy 6 ASAP and then con 4 is vital to start speed, and start speed is vital to making the most of your gr
...

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Re: so if you go 1/25 instead of 1/10 Sat, 24 February 2007 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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iztok wrote on Sat, 24 February 2007 11:16


I've fully forgotten the pure performance testbeds without limitations.



what are sensible limitations?
robotoid ai seems fine to me, it forces one to build dds and defend against pop drop and pop drop or bomb a bit oneself.



iztok wrote on Sat, 24 February 2007 11:16


Quote:

Anyone i can send my game files with 12.5 K in 2450 for uploading - i like worshippers:) ?

My mail addres here on AH is a valid one.

BR, Iztok


file sent, i await your prayers. Cool
(please pray for a keyboard where shift,ctrl and alt are working. Confused )

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