Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Wed, 11 January 2006 16:35   |
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 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Kotk wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 11:49 |
As good example of skill differences there was once such a game:
5 pregame teams of 3 intermediates each, no CA.
One team of solo Expert who played CA.
Start locations were prearranged and bit moved so teams did start close to each other. Expert started in center.
Expert won it.  It was long ago however. These days the "intermediates" are lot better. 
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As Iztok says, it is hard to point to a single skill...but I'll go out a limb, and say race design.  I have played against many skilled players, but I have only lost to a few players. Those players all had near perfect econ skills, steming from near perfect race design. Their other skills were just OK.
Everything is fairly irrelevent if you can't produce enough ships, can't research fast enough, and can't control enough space. Race design is the biggest factor in that equation. This is not to say that no other skills are important...and some skills like diplomacy can naturally be better in certain games or against certain players, but it is tough to mount a good offense/defense if your econ is not up to the task. Diplomacy is always easier, if the other guy respects your empire.
Further, I have played against people who were so good at Econ, that beating them was very difficult from sheer numbers perspective. Consider CCmasters duel HE as evidence. Tactical skill wasn't really needed (whether he has those skills or not), as he apparently just overwhelmed opponets. I have seen many players that had outstanding econ skills like this, and it is very tough to stop that train.
It is rare that I have found a player that has star Econ skills and has the ability to fight at both the strategic and tactical level at better than an intermediate level. They probably never needed to learn (thankfully!). Personally, race design is my main failing in stars. Substandard Econ results from this, and my intolerance to MM to the nth degree, is a real problem if I run into an Econ star. I will say flat out, I can't remember a time when someone has beaten me via superior tactics and strategy. My losses I attribute to being overwhelmed via superior econ of the enemy, and in 1 case, political actions that created an insurmountable alliance (Gee, bet you never heard of that before. And yes, it was a single player victory game...  ).
So, as far as this relates to the best skill...The skills associated with knowing how everything works, and how to maximize their effects, to knowing when to build ships instead of waiting for 1 more tech, from the overall grand strategy down to 1 tactical battle adds up to alot of different skills. All of those skills are near worthless, if you don't have a great econ, and a great econ depends on a great race design...
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Thu, 12 January 2006 04:25 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1205
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| mlaub wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 22:35 |
As Iztok says, it is hard to point to a single skill...but I'll go out a limb, and say race design.
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If I'd have to point on a single skill I'd say "situation awareness": the ability to correctly asses what's going on in your universe. The "what's going on" isn't limited just to current situation (positions and strenghts/weaknesses of other players, their diplomatic relations, ... ), it also involves probable strategies of other players. When I'm armed with that knowledge, it becomes quite easy to set up my grand strategy, and from it to plot a proper course of tactical actions, focusing everything on the final goal - victory.
Well, at least that's the way things work at me. From comunications with other players I'd also dare to say that in quite some of them this ability is less developed than in me, despite they have much more games under their belts than I have. So it looks like situation awareness is something it is hard to develop, and prevents those, that don't have a good one, to move to really high gamer levels.
Please, don't take any offense. I just tried to explain something that works in my brain without my conscious effort and knowledge. Things just come together to form The Picture and I use it.
Just my .
BR, Iztok
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Thu, 12 January 2006 09:55 |
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| Madman |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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If I'd just said intermediate/advanced in the game advertisement, life would have been a lot easier.
I'm going to now make an arbitrary ruling on this, based on:
* the difference between beginners and intermedate is larger than the difference between intermediate and advanced, but there is a real difference.
* I've heard no violent objections to advanced people playing, and the poll suggested that advanced people should be allowed to play (the poll suggested without penalty).
* we are relying on honesty as to who is and isn't an advanced player anyway.
Rule for advanced players:
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* Advanced players are welcome, provided you take some sort of penalty that you regard as suitable and won't be too disadvantageous to a less experienced neighbour (-f or QS is _not_ a suitable penalty!), whether it be points left over in the RW in addition to any JoaT or CA points), no diplomacy, or some suboptimal race design, or even just a PRT you've never played before. I'll let you choose the penalty according to how advanced they think that are (please don't cripple yourself, just something you consider would make you fit in an intermediate game), but if it is a penalty affecting behaviour during the game (such as no diplomacy), everyone knows what it is.
* Everyone will be told which players consider themselves a higher level than intermediate, but not necessarily what the penalty is (unless it is a 'behaviour during game' one).
For my part, I regard myself at the high end of intermediate (I'm very good at econ, and an inveterate MM player), so if I play (I would still intend not to if possible because I'm hosting my first game), I'll either spend 50 RW points on defences, or take one of the non-econ PRTs (I've never played a non-econ PRT).
Game start:
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We seem to have the following 6 players (I was hoping for more):
Strannik
* FurFuznel
Wayne
multilis
* Kado (from the rgcs newsgroup)
* Roman Khananov (from the rgcs newsgroup)
(* = have race files)
but I think it is time to move towards actually starting a game.
I think medium normal is too large for this, so I propose that the universe be changed to medium sparse. If player number climbs to 8, I'll suggest changing it back to normal and let everyone know, so if your race depends critically on star density, please be ready to handle this (by submitting a changed race if necessary). I would be prepared to remap the universe to get the density right if anyone insists, but that's a hassle to sort out if people aren't worried about it.
Universe settings and how do deal with advanced players are of course negotiable if the alternative is losing all the players, but I'd rather get the game started than spend more time in here.
So for my brother has three race files, so the rest of you (and anyone else that wants to play) please submit race files, preferably within the next 3-4 days. I aim to start approximately one week from today with whatever races I have, and when my brother has another two files, I'll request the slot on autohost (don't want to run afoul of the 8 day limit).
PM me or email me: roy_dunedin@hotmail.com and I'll give you the email of my brother who I'm using to co-ordinate this. NOTE: if you are an advanced player taking some sort of race penalty, tell him what it the penalty is, because I've asked him to keep an eye out for 'broken' races.
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Thu, 12 January 2006 14:39 |
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| Quote: |
single skill...but I'll go out a limb, and say race design... situational awareness
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(we likely will want this split to different thread after, I am splitting my responses to match)
Diplomacy, micromanagment, misleading the situational awareness of enemies, math of efficiencies (ship design, race management, war managment), lots of factors with different ones being key depending on game/player. You are often only as strong as the weakest link to your setup.
Diplomacy links closely with situational awareness of you and your enemies. An example from Transformers game, Ptolemy at other end of galaxy from early diplomacy realised I would be biggest threat if not stopped (situational awareness), so he actively worked to get others to gang up on me. But on downside, he was too agresssive over greens with one neighbour, looked like nicest good greens to another and as result became isolated target without a helper. (He fell quickly to a backstab but could have also fallen to a more open attack by his -f neighbour)
Situational awareness of others and micromanagement: Sotek tends to have good race designs/eccon work. He also is often bold in a good way. But during 2 games, he allowed his neighbours a good situational awareness/much notice of his first wave of attack. He also openly admits having difficulty with the micromanagment of getting around good minefield defence.
As humans, we learn, including how to improve our weakest links/skills.
[Updated on: Thu, 12 January 2006 14:55] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Thu, 12 January 2006 14:43 |
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| Quote: |
but I think it is time to move towards actually starting a game
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It may take me a day or few days to figure out and tune a race design. I like to play with a little unusual ideas.
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Thu, 12 January 2006 16:50 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| gible wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 03:42 |
| Orange wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 11:49 |
A suggestion: allow your advance players but only with the AR PRT.
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NOT a good idea. As the recently re-posted AR guide says...AR races only grow in strength..starting off weaker and ending up unassailable. I'm sure advanced players would have the diplomatic/stars skill needed to survive the vulnerable period.
Besides...while I don't think AR is a very good choice for a newbie(very beginner) I'd hate to be the intermediate who chooses AR and gets pasted by his neighbours because they thought he was advanced and needed to be stomped ASAP
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Your arguments are somewhat contradictory. Diplomatic skills only gets you so far - the idea is to let the beginner/intermediates have some fun before getting pasted by the advanced players if the beginners/intermediates let it live to the end game. It is a long vulnerable period.
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Thu, 12 January 2006 17:05 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| Orange wrote on Tue, 10 January 2006 18:01 |
What is the difference between an advance versus intermediate player?
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I would like to thank everyone for their comments.
mlaub's comments described myself rather well. My 2 wins (single player wins) have been due to Econ & MM (& alot of luck). I am a little short of grand strategic vision and situation awareness.
I will join in.
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life |
Sat, 14 January 2006 06:42 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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Update: we have an eighth player, a friend of mine called Mike, and another person has just emailed me asking to join. That makes nine (unless I've counted someone twice).
I will not be playing a race myself, but may well play Mike's race for a few days if he has to go away, so keep sending race files to the address that I pass on when you contact me (i.e. I don't get to see the race files).
This also means that we can switch back to normal rather than sparse density, as long as no-one drops before the game start.
There are still 1-2 places available if anyone else wants to join.
[Message updated for 9th player]
[Updated on: Sat, 14 January 2006 10:18] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life |
Mon, 16 January 2006 22:24 |
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Update from me:
I've been testbedding, note that lack of acc-bbs and in my case likely lack of diplomacy makes a big difference.
So far my testbeds tend to be very lopsided on planet draws, either lots of good greens and other planets near or horrible. (2-3x as many as expected or fewer than expected after 15+ scoutings) Strange luck, I have more understanding of ccmaster and mlaub in their discussions of duel championships.
I've got relatives coming into the country soon, got to prepare and work still busy so chance I may not be able to make it in by time you guys are ready to start.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 January 2006 22:31] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life |
Tue, 17 January 2006 07:41 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| multilis wrote on Tue, 17 January 2006 16:24 |
I've got relatives coming into the country soon, got to prepare and work still busy so chance I may not be able to make it in by time you guys are ready to start.
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Well, see how things go ... I'm going to have to extend the start a few days as I've just got some new players, and need to give them time to get me a race. I have however got the slot on autohost, so the clock is ticking for game start.
I now have 11 players (any more players will have to go on a waiting list in case someone doesn't send a race file), so the universe _will_ be medium normal as first proposed.
The players are:
Strannik
Multilis (depending on getting race ready)
FurFuznel
Wayne
Orange
Vince
Kado
Roman
Steve
Andrea
Mike
I have races now from most of you, and have a request - for some of you, I have emails from you and don't have a record with how that matches up with you Stars Autohost name (if you have one). Could you please email me with your SAH name so I know who is who?
Note to moderators: don't lock this thread yet, as there is always a chance of replacing players if they drop before the game, and I want to be able to post announcements here.
[Updated on: Tue, 17 January 2006 07:56] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life |
Wed, 18 January 2006 02:11 |
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| Iconian |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006
Location: Nevada, USA | |
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Hi everyone,
I bought Stars! about a year ago and have become extremely bored with the AI.  I'd love to play in this game--it would be my first game with human players. I know that the positions are pretty much filled, but if possible I'd still like to play. I'm mainly just glad I've actually found somewhere on the net with active players. I've been to the Village, the Keep, the List, and the Autohost a while back, but I didn't notice that there's a forum until recently, so I guess there's a possibility to join games. I look forward to joining some game in the near future.
I think I'd probably be about intermediate skill level. The AI doesn't seem to be much of a testing ground--even on expert the computer doesn't offer much resistance. I think it just increases their advantage points anyway--they're not any smarter--and I think it would be really enjoyable to play with opponents who actually adapt and can feel their way through things more.
Actually I'm probably beginner, though I can't say for sure. Since this would be my first multiplayer game I think I'd be beginner by default. Hopefully I could still fit in and have a chance with live opponents. I do figure I have a fair amount of time for the game--I don't anticipate dropping out or anything, unless I get in a car wreck in the next month or something. I am a bit fuzzy still on all the file transfers and such though.
That's about it. I hope I can get in somehow still, or maybe I'll just look around for a different game.
Yeah, bread too.
Don't Let the Stars! Fade AwayReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life |
Wed, 18 January 2006 03:14 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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Welcome, Iconian
It is much better (and tougher) to play against human players than against the AI - playing against the AI is no judge of skill.
Unfortunately, I don't think this would be the right game for you - the level of play requred to beat the AI is quite different than that required to beat human players, and it would be a bit rough for you face up against people with a lot more experience, and it might be unbalancing for the game if your empire fell over quickly and the neighbours got the space.
I'd suggest waiting around for a beginners game (there are usually more beginners games posted on here than other sorts), and if you want to do something while you are waiting, perhaps see if you can find another beginner to have a duel against (possibly check the duelling club). IMO, a Stars! game is such a huge investment of time that it's worth waiting a bit for the right game.
One thing I do recommend everyone try sometime as an excercise is in a testbed game (with ACC-BBS), trying to get 25k resources by 2450 - that gives an idea of what intermediate or higher level opponents are likely to be doing in a real game. Once you can do that in a game against human players, you might be ready for intermediate games.
I hope a suitable game turns up soon.
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life |
Wed, 18 January 2006 11:50 |
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I have emailed a race.
I'll have everyone set to enemy/attack all, no diplomacy... though perhaps it would be ok to allow me a ingame message to all every 5 years so I can propperly insult everyone as part of my races xenophobic theme?
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life |
Wed, 25 January 2006 20:34 |
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It may take another few days before the game starts.... it looks like Ron also has to set up bunch of duels for the championship.
I think I speak for everyone in thanking Madman and Ron for their efforts.
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| Re: Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life |
Mon, 30 January 2006 21:28 |
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| Ron |
| Commander
Forum Administrator
Stars! AutoHost Administrator |
Messages: 1231
Registered: October 2002
Location: Collegedale, TN | |
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Game started, topic locked.
Ron Miller
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