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New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 04:10 Go to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
I ask everyone for test and play new game with Geneticus mod Stars! game.
This mod's been testing by polish players: until 2450 nobody's been finding critical mistakes.
Mod is playable, but nobody's benn plaing by WM Smile.
Mod enables build new "untypicall" designs and requires new strategies to play - now you can rediscover Stars!
So, this mod has a one big defect: 16 designs limitation.
If (on normal Stars! game) it was a problem, now is a nightmare Very Happy .

Full description MOD on:
http://www.republika.pl/starsgame

First experiences:
The worse race is PP: totally no advices.
IT has higher bonus: fast transport with very heavy unit, but...
WM has a seeming advices (weap6). More powerfull but expensive, similarly as BSC and DN (few units on test didn't have full equipment on design: you must see on weight and cost!)
HE has better advice than on standard game: fast and cheap transporter (minicolony ship design + SD engine)
All races can use >95% cloacking Surprised

But the best idea is units flexibility... try it on with live opponents game: you can surprise or be surprised Very Happy


[Updated on: Thu, 04 August 2005 08:00]




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Andrev

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005
Some things jump out at me:

The powers of the (formerly range 0) weapons hav been dropped to 10, 20, and 30 Shocked ! They say they're intended to be chaff killers, but they can't even kill one FF chaff, and the weaker ones can't kill a scout chaff! Since the whole point of chaff is that one missle can only kill one chaff, if one beam can only kill one chaff (or less) it doesn't make the situation much better.

With everything being GP slots, who would research con past 13? WMs, ITs, and ARs, I guess, but certainly no one would feel compelled to take the con tech all the way to 26, with battleships having so many GP slots. Also, are DNs better than Nubians now?

I'm sorry if my tone is aggressive. These changes just seem very surprising to me.

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
crr65536 wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 17:17

These changes just seem very surprising to me.

Oh ... its general trend of modding to turn too few into too many and vice versa. Laughing Probably the former range 0 weapons are meant as new overcloaker weights since armors were made lighter. Nod

What i dont like is that this mod is against my two favorite PRT-s. SS is meaningless and AR too hard to play in universe where all these JOAT-s, IT-s and CA-s are invisible. Evil or Very Mad

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:

The powers of the (formerly range 0) weapons hav been dropped to 10, 20, and 30 Shocked ! They say they're intended to be chaff killers, but they can't even kill one FF chaff, and the weaker ones can't kill a scout chaff!


What is the goal with destroy many chaff units with ONE W0 element? You can create few units with many slots of W0 to kill chaff or build space stations with these... Beamer's W0 power is totalized. Additionally you can used more EC elements to higher power. Very Happy


Quote:

With everything being GP slots, who would research con past 13? WMs, ITs, and ARs, I guess, but certainly no one would feel compelled to take the con tech all the way to 26, with battleships having so many GP slots. Also, are DNs better than Nubians now?


Yes, you're right... but I've few "but":
IT: you needen't use any/any gates. But if you want to have full gateble fortress ships you can research it...
WM: research not for DN. I see that you didn't try this mod. If you try to do this you'll see that DN is very (too?) expensive. DN can be used as non-military unit (f.e. as cloaker)
AR: You're right. DS is too expensive for this race... but DS has a lot of GP slots. More than 100! Smile
DN vs. NB huh, have you ever compared these designs with costs? NB is cheaper few times than DN, aren't you? Shocked
Other races needen't research past con13... and can research faster other fields or faster build high-power fleet. Very Happy

I hope that everyone see that play by mod is not simple... You can more possibilities and traps into this game... Rolling Eyes



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Andrev

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005
Andrev wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 14:24

Quote:

The powers of the (formerly range 0) weapons hav been dropped to 10, 20, and 30 Shocked ! They say they're intended to be chaff killers, but they can't even kill one FF chaff, and the weaker ones can't kill a scout chaff!


What is the goal with destroy many chaff units with ONE W0 element? You can create few units with many slots of W0 to kill chaff or build space stations with these... Beamer's W0 power is totalized. Additionally you can used more EC elements to higher power. Very Happy



My point is: if the missle boats are more effective at killing chaff than the "chaff-killers", well then, you can see where that leads ... Confused

To be honest, I haven't tried the mod. I read your description on your site, and it seems like there would be many unbalancing factors, and certain decisions seem to be reasonable ideas Wink (for example your chaff-killer weapons) but with rather poor execution Confused . Am I correct that all non-engine slots except for bomb slots and mining robot slots have been replaced with GP slots? Something doesn't settle with me that 13 levels of Construction - half of them Shocked are more or less useless - in addition to high Bio being useless and high propulsion being useless, and high energy yielding very little as well. The whole point of construction 17-23 yielding nothing, as I understand it, is that for a significant investment, you get a super hull with many more advantages. This has been taken away in this mod, it seems to me.

Then, of course, there are the objections voiced earlier, and other ones that can be deduced:
PP, already considered the weakest PRT by many (who can take that discussion up in another thread), is now even weaker Sad .
SS loses its cloaking advantage, since everyone can make good overcloakers relatively easily.
WM is at more of a disadvantage, since other people will have more effective minelayers (FF minelayer can lay 7 now) and DNs are, according to your post, very expensive.
I'd imagine it would be easier to build gatable warships now, making things worse for ITs.
SD doesn't have so much of a minelaying advantage.
Nothing disturbs CA continuing to have such a large economic advantage.
HE's meta-morphs are less valuable.
And probably other things I didn't think of.

What I am wondering is - what is it about Stars (plain old Stars) that you think needs fixing? There are many things I could put on a list, for example balancing CA, but I'm not sure what the real purpose of these changes is. Sure, I could get into having everything GP slots Surprised , but there are reasons why they aren't Very Happy .

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:

its general trend of modding to turn too few into too many and vice versa


Yes, but (fortunatelly Smile ) in few players opinions, mod is more playable than standard Stars! game...

Quote:

What i dont like is that this mod is against my two favorite PRT-s. SS is meaningless and AR too hard to play in universe where all these JOAT-s, IT-s and CA-s are invisible.


Maybe your right with AR. This mod is good to play with medium universe or less, with use BB as mean military unit. In bigger universes all use light and cheap NB as the mean ship...

But I disagree with your opinion about SS.
SS can full-cloak ALL his own units, and use to do this less GP slots! Therefore, SS units can be stronger (more military slots), do you see it?
For your example: non-SS race must use all (!) slots with cloak to hide his own CC design...
And races with their special designs (like SS) are more flexible than without them (like your's JoAT, IT, CA) Very Happy



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Andrev

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:

My point is: if the missle boats are more effective at killing chaff than the "chaff-killers", well then, you can see where that leads ... Confused


Cost is the key. Missiles are very expensive. Additionally: beam and missile range is similar, and beam has more initiative...

Quote:

Am I correct that all non-engine slots except for bomb slots and mining robot slots have been replaced with GP slots?


Unfortunatelly, if you have GP slot, you can't build engine, bomb or mining robot. It's not my fault.
But I don't want to give corrections depth inside in game...

Quote:

Something doesn't settle with me that 13 levels of Construction - half of them Shocked are more or less useless - in addition to high Bio being useless and high propulsion being useless, and high energy yielding very little as well. The whole point of construction 17-23 yielding nothing, as I understand it


I don't understand you. All are a standard rule of original Stars game. Now you only can discover NB, but I think it isn't necessary to win! With mod you can faster build high-tech fleet.
Why si original game with this rules OK, but this mod already not?

Quote:

PP, already considered the weakest PRT by many (who can take that discussion up in another thread), is now even weaker Crying or Very Sad .


? The PP is still weak. What is different?
My goal is not totally balanced Stars! game, but more playable.

Quote:

SS loses its cloaking advantage, since everyone can make good overcloakers relatively easily.


No! SS is still better with cloaking. Non-SS race can hide his CC by usying all CC slots as cloak. It's mean that unit is stronger (but not hide), or weak... This choise is yours. Smile

Quote:

WM is at more of a disadvantage, since other people will have more effective minelayers (FF minelayer can lay 7 now) and DNs are, according to your post, very expensive.


Yes, but WM has cheaper weapon and can used it more on unit.
WM can use (for example DN) as mine-layer too or very fast mine-destroyer. Wm can use (f.e. on DN design) more beam deflectors like NB Very Happy to better self-defence...
And empty DN design is stronger, but who tell you to use all slots? The cost of not full design will be cheaper, huh? Very Happy


Quote:

I'd imagine it would be easier to build gatable warships now, making things worse for ITs.


Yes! And this adventage of IT is worse! But only IT can build and fast transport high-heavy fortress...

Quote:

SD doesn't have so much of a minelaying advantage.


But can use his additional designs as standard ships.

Quote:

Nothing disturbs CA continuing to have such a large economic advantage.


Sorry, but CA, IT and JoAT are the best and simply races to play... but now they aren't worse, other races (I think) are better. Its advice, because this reces and other are more balanced Laughing

Quote:

HE's meta-morphs are less valuable.


Yes, your right, but MM is still poor construction. But high HE adventage is cheap and fast weap6 transporter (on mini-colony ship hull).

Quote:

What I am wondering is - what is it about Stars (plain old Stars) that you think needs fixing? There are many things I could put on a list, for example balancing CA, but I'm not sure what the real purpose of these changes is. Sure, I could get into having everything GP slots Surprised , but there are reasons why they aren't Very Happy .


Yes, your right again.
But have you enyoyed when you've built all time this same CC and BB design? When all haven't palyed and have still waited for con26 and NB design?
The best goal of this mod is: you must search new strategies.
Maybe some corrections are worse (f.e. with armours, W0, W1-3) but now it is other game...
Now, to first battles you can use heavy DD! But in stadard game all have waited for "standard" CC hull.



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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
Andrev wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 21:57

For your example: non-SS race must use all (!) slots with cloak to hide his own CC design...

So what? Who cares how hard is to cloak that cruiser? Confused When does SS put cloaks on cruiser anyway? I have never put any cloaks on cruiser and i have won several games with SS. Suggesting someone takes electronics 12 at cruiser era? Rolling Eyes Equally one can fill all the slots on privateer or destroyer with cloaks and still be not 98% cloaked while with your mod SS can? Laughing It is BB overcloaker that i was complaining about when talking of invisibility and you understood it very well. Razz So SS uses 4% of his military budget for full cloaking and JoAT uses 10% for very same result. Since JoAT has usually 50% bigger budget plus free scanning i see all SS effect is lost and SS is dead meat within this mod. Nod

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Thu, 04 August 2005 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005
From the tech browser:
Battleship: 41 slots, which would all be general purpose with your mod
Cost: 120/25/20/225

Nubian: 36 GP slots
Cost: 75/12/12/150

Since the BB has miniaturized 52% by the time you have Nubian tech, you get more slots for less, because it's effective cost is less than half. It's heavier, but it's more cost-effective in any other aspect - and plus since BB init is higher you need fewer computers, although you will need more armor to match a Nubian's.

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 05 August 2005 01:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:

Since the BB has miniaturized 52% by the time you have Nubian tech, you get more slots for less, because it's effective cost is less than half. It's heavier, but it's more cost-effective in any other aspect - and plus since BB init is higher you need fewer computers, although you will need more armor to match a Nubian's.


You see that not only IT needs research construction >13 for his any/any gates.. but all players Very Happy
Now, BB can be not gateable and slow - if you use all slot as military equipment. Anyway nobody have played on BB, so I don't know: is BB more effective than NB or not.
Your're right about cost, but BB effectivity has other sides - as you see from your post, you MUST research construction to less cost of BB Very Happy and discover standard "empty" con levels.
Then you have additionally light design (NB).


[Updated on: Fri, 05 August 2005 01:40]




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Andrev

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 05 August 2005 01:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:

So what? Who cares how hard is to cloak that cruiser? When does SS put cloaks on cruiser anyway? I have never put any cloaks on cruiser and i have won several games with SS. Suggesting someone takes electronics 12 at cruiser era? Equally one can fill all the slots on privateer or destroyer with cloaks and still be not 98% cloaked while with your mod SS can? It is BB overcloaker that i was complaining about when talking of invisibility and you understood it very well. So SS uses 4% of his military budget for full cloaking and JoAT uses 10% for very same result. Since JoAT has usually 50% bigger budget plus free scanning i see all SS effect is lost and SS is dead meat within this mod.


I don't understand! Advice of SS:
- autocloaking of designs
- ultra cloak equipment and robber scanners
- new special designs
- overcloaking possibility
- steal technology from other players

Why does my mod destroy balance SS vs. other races?
Non-SS can only hide individually ships with a lot of super cloaks - and they lose military power of these, but all advices of SS still are useful.
My example shows that non-SS races only CAN totally hide one ship. On mod it's only possible, but sense to build it is other problem. Confused



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Andrev

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 05 August 2005 02:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SinicalIdealist is currently offline SinicalIdealist

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 184
Registered: October 2003
Location: North-left US

I've found the most interesting mods to be those that work to equalize the competitiveness of each of the PRTs.

IMO, the primary goals should be to
1) decrease the power of CA by a limited amount compared to the rest of the PRTs;
2) increase the power and efficacy of AR and PP w/ regard to rest of PRTs.
3) Slightly offset some of WMs and SS's shortcomings.

There are a few completely useless parts that could be improved as well...




g.e.
====

"When the newspapers have been read, the TV sets shut off, the cars parked
in their various garages. Then, faintly, I hear voices from another star.
(I clocked it once, and the reception is best between 3:00 A.M. and 4:45
A.M.). Of course, I don't usually tell people this when they ask, "Say,
where do you get your ideas?" I just say I don't know. It's safer."
-P. K. Dick

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 05 August 2005 02:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
Andrev wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 08:38


My example shows that non-SS races only CAN totally hide one ship. On mod it's only possible, but sense to build it is other problem. Confused
The problem of your example is that SS does not cloak his cruisers too so whats the difference that he can do it better?
You dont know what overcloaker is? Surprised How you can judge then the value and balance of your mod? Rolling Eyes Open your mod for usual race and do a test:
Build battleship with trans galactic mizers and put 10 weapon 7 beams onto it. Rest of the slots fill with elec 10 cloaks. Then you can merge 5-15 warship BB-s to it (depending on warship weight) and all the fleet is fully cloaked.

That was viable tactic for SS only in usual stars! since battleship had only 7 electronics possible. Now anyone can do it so why to play SS? Rolling Eyes Very Happy

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 05 August 2005 04:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:

That was viable tactic for SS only in usual stars! since battleship had only 7 electronics possible. Now anyone can do it so why to play SS? Rolling Eyes Very Happy


Answer (for me) is very simple: better cloaking! You can use less cloak elements so your hide fleet can be stronger.
It's not end: usying UC's SS you can totally hide bigger fleet.
It's still not end: your fleet can be more hide, defenced and can be faster (speed 2.5), so your stealing can be simpler.
But if you're right why nobody (non-SS race) has been building totally cloaked heavy NB? The answer is this same like on your question: "why to play SS".



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Andrev

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 05 August 2005 04:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:


IMO, the primary goals should be to
1) decrease the power of CA by a limited amount compared to the rest of the PRTs;
2) increase the power and efficacy of AR and PP w/ regard to rest of PRTs.
3) Slightly offset some of WMs and SS's shortcomings.



I know it, but changing program is not good to deeply modifications. I don't know program to change race parameters - only for modification ships and weapons.
So its not good to PP, and AR too (race modification is needed).
About WM and SS: similarly, but I don't know what does it mean "slighty" and how much is it Very Happy .



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Andrev

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 05 August 2005 05:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
Andrev wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 11:50

But if you're right why nobody (non-SS race) has been building totally cloaked heavy NB?

How so nobody? Shocked Check academy of this forum there are multiple threads discussing overcloakers. I thought any intermediate level player knows what is nubian overcloaker and how to use it. Confused

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Sun, 02 October 2005 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Kotk wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 11:48

Andrev wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 11:50

But if you're right why nobody (non-SS race) has been building totally cloaked heavy NB?

How so nobody? Shocked Check academy of this forum there are multiple threads discussing overcloakers. I thought any intermediate level player knows what is nubian overcloaker and how to use it. Confused



Yes, you're right and my mistake.
But now - in this MOD you can use overcloaker early - in BB design. SS has better cloak elements - co he can use halfwar-cloaker units (less cloak elements on one design) or can build less BB-overcloaker units (as you know, BB isn't cheap design).
SS has more advices - he can build less no-war BB (overcloakers) and it equal: more war-BB!

And



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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Mon, 03 October 2005 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
Andrev wrote on Sun, 02 October 2005 12:05

But now - in this MOD you can use overcloaker early - in BB design.

BB and galleon were already useful overcloakers for SS in unmodified Stars! If someone wanted such thing he just played SS. Nod Your mod turned unique ability + cheaper cloaking into cheaper cloaking only.
Quote:

SS has better cloak elements - co he can use halfwar-cloaker units (less cloak elements on one design) or can build less BB-overcloaker units (as you know, BB isn't cheap design).
That cheapness was there already your mod added nothing to it? It was never noticable econ gain because SS econ is usually 30-50% weaker anyway than that of IT or JOAT. So ... cheaper cloaking gains him 5% back ... terrible bargain i would say. Confused Agree up, SS is pointless PRT with your mod. Wink

Lets see other candidates ... IT is quicker at stealth attack because can gate his overcloakers. SD must be is more painful to fight against with more cloaks on layer. However, IS seems best stealth fighting PRT with your mod ... tachylon BB-s + overcloaker BB-s. It can both see the others and hide itself. Mad

Worst thing is that the hulls lost their face and purpose with your mod. Everything looks now like metamorph, minimorph or nubian hull. Confused
Why you didnt use other multipurpose slot types possible? Like weapon/shield or shield/armor. Why to give over 10-11 electronics on hull to anyone early besides HE and SS (and maybe WM)? It must be is still possible to make hulls more flexible and interesting to play without killing balance between primary traits. Cool


[Updated on: Mon, 03 October 2005 14:01]

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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal Fri, 14 October 2005 07:31 Go to previous message
Andrev is currently offline Andrev

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Quote:

Worst thing is that the hulls lost their face and purpose with your mod. Everything looks now like metamorph, minimorph or nubian hull.


I disagree with you. Game can be more interesting - early wars can be possible (with flexible DD and FF hulls) - CC has more free slots, and BB more than CC.
Now Con technology is not key to win. But NB - I think that NB is cheaper and lighter than BB! Rolling Eyes

About HE ships - maybe you're right, but long long time I have seen any HE race.

And



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