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Re: -f HE Wed, 17 December 2003 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
freakyboy wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 14:49

Small, dense, no accell bbs galaxy.

This negates HE's initial pop advantage.
BR, Iztok

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Re: -f HE Wed, 17 December 2003 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy is currently offline timmy

 
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iztok wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 09:13

Hi!
freakyboy wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 14:49

Small, dense, no accell bbs galaxy.

This negates HE's initial pop advantage.
BR, Iztok



However, ccmaster's original example was this:

ccmaster wrote on Mon, 15 December 2003 03:28


In a normal game ( witout BBS ) the HE ( 40 % ) have in year 2406 170k+ grow 56k a year the Joat only 74k on his HW . The Joat needs unitll year 2414 then he have 320k and a grow of 64 k.



I would like to observe this game if you guys in fact do play ...

Regards,
Tim

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Re: -f HE Wed, 17 December 2003 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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freakyboy wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 14:49

I will lay down the gauntlet here a little (kind of)

if ccmaster doesn't mind of course.....

I'm talking about playing a full open to everyone game.

I shall play a bog standard 19% -F JOAT, ccmaster with his -f HE.

Small, dense, no accell bbs galaxy.

We'll play to turn 2450 (which my ccmasters claims... i should only have my HW left).

Whoever hosts will back up every single turn. The whole game will be zipped up and passwords provided in a text file and then place a link on this thread to look at the overall effect.

You game cc???

(the reason why this wont be entered as a duel is because I have already seen his race and I wont be designing a counter-design, only a bog standard -f JOAT.)


Sure Wink

1 question : only testing Pop grow ( what would means no armed ships no other station , or a normal Game ? )

Player positions ? Close i hope Wink

ccmaster

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Re: -f HE Wed, 17 December 2003 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
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What kind of advantage would possobly several hundred pt for removing fac give to -f HE that would justify the nightmare of MM and pop balancing of -f HE. Espesially for a race that routinely deals with several thousand creation pts?

Am I missing something here?



In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: -f HE Wed, 17 December 2003 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 19:06

Am I missing something here?


Yeah, they're talking about a 20(40)% HE.



- LEit

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Re: -f HE Thu, 18 December 2003 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
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A -f race doesn't have resources being consumed building factories so more are free for other stuff.

On defence, no factories to worry about getting bombed, easy to just load up pop and run somewhere's else if a fleet with bombers are heading your way and you can't stop them.

IMO the 40% growth rate part is overblown, I would go for a lower growth rate still much higher than everyone elses but take other advantages like wider hab to end up with the same sort of high growth rate overall.



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Re: -f HE Thu, 18 December 2003 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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multilis wrote on Thu, 18 December 2003 21:49

A -f
IMO the 40% growth rate part is overblown, I would go for a lower growth rate still much higher than everyone elses but take other advantages like wider hab to end up with the same sort of high growth rate overall.



Of course you are rigth like i told some message earlier the 40% grow HE is nop playable ....... normaly Playing HE you should take 13-15 % (26-30%)and wider hab works normaly well.

But we have talke about Pop grow and Timmy told that a Joat would outgrow a HE 20% ( 40% )this is why i takting about a HE -f 20% ( 40 % ) .

ccmaster

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Re: -f HE Thu, 18 December 2003 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
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LEit wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 21:20

alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 19:06

Am I missing something here?


Yeah, they're talking about a 20(40)% HE.


Ohoh... reminds me of the good old days of HE designing Crying or Very Sad
You now, HE for me doesn't stand for Hyper-Expansion. It means High Explosive for blowing stuff... Laughing , like other races...

In this game ones who grow faster, win. But you must remember that ideal growth rate is never achieved outside 1 turn all 100% jumps between planets. Most, (correct me if I am wrong) races do no achive growth greater than 12% for long. Personally I donno why two immune HE are not popular- they can achieve somewhat greater growth rate because of distances between habbitable planets being much shorter. (I have the formula somewhere).

The important thing is GROWTH=planet value*growth rate
so if you spend those lousy few hundred from factories to growth, you'll sacrifice your total output with pop that is hard to control, plus I don't see how you can reach 30+ growth rate without sacrificing the immunity (I always take it)

IMO the better way to go is to:
I. Take one immunity
II. Adjust your hab so that you have at least TWICE as many planets as any HG (read 1 in 2)
III. Keep the fac- the initial expansion stage is too quick for HE to build them in any significant number i. e. act as if you are an -f. Razz When things start to get a little crowded, you will have solid mineral base and 'll be able to build all the fac in 5(!) turns.
IV. Having growth rate that is slightly better than the best a normal race is still enough to outgrow 'em. i. e. go for 22-24% growth rate- it'll add up . Cool

If you can do all that, you've just created a race that would roll over any pesky CA. Which is just as well, cause I HATE 'EM
(which is the major reason why I never get 'em orbital adjusters Sad )

NOTE: if none of this makes any sence, you are not the only one to think that Laughing
...




In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: -f HE Fri, 19 December 2003 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
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alexdstewart wrote on Thu, 18 December 2003 20:36


IMO the better way to go is to:
I. Take one immunity



I like anywheres from 0 to 3 immunities, with 2i being my least favorite because I would rather jump to 3i and not worry about habs at all.

Lower the number of immunities and you can improve hab range and growth rate to compensate. With 0i, your average good greens are now only perhaps 50% hab, but if you have 30% growth rate that translates to a still respectable 15% growth. And wider hab helps compensate for each planet having a lower total pop.

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Re: -f HE Fri, 19 December 2003 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
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I think not! Mad

Take no immunity and the average is 50? Shocked
Why THATS a surprise! Confused
Unless we are playing complitely different games, you should be getting average 30% worlds with 0i which puts you BEHIND the rest of galaxy. Confused Back to square one IMO, but with difficult to control population and LOTs of MM.(?) Confused

50%-60% worlds become available with more like 1i. (Am I not right?). I was SO frustrated with 0i settings, I NEVER take 'em anymore... Evil or Very Mad Without 1i your terra efforts are VERY cost ineffective, which is a MAJOR issue with HE I've found... from experience. Twisted Evil

With 2i your terra is not very effective either, 'cause the planets U get are of such good value Crying or Very Sad ...
Also your growth WILL be significantly hampered by the- "takes forever just to build an empty spacedock" issue.

I am not perfect and there might be a way(s) to get around those issues, but I don't see how that's possible. If you know, please tell me- knowledge shared is knowledge gained. Very Happy



In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: -f HE Sat, 20 December 2003 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
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alexdstewart wrote on Fri, 19 December 2003 11:17

I think not! Mad

Take no immunity and the average is 50? Shocked
Why THATS a surprise! Confused



I said average GOOD greens rather than average planet. BIG difference. Good greens are the ones you actually use for breeding. A regular race might have more reds than greens to look at, yet their average good green is a usable green, not a red. In the beginning you can be selective, and the poor greens are treated similar to yellows for other races.

You don't build even a spacedock everywheres, it is a game of strategically picking planets to build ships and the rest do other things like techs and minerals. With the mini-coloniser you are moving pop and minerals at warp 9 right from the start.

There are systems to help in the micromanagement part, including lots of automated orders, but yes it is a comparative pain. As a -f, there are some other micromanagement issues that disappear, just like as a 3i some micromanagement issues disappear.

I'm not the biggest -f fan, I would prefer other setups, but I can see it working well in certain games.

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icon14.gif  Re: -f HE Sat, 20 December 2003 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
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Or, you can choose immunity and get 80% average good green worlds AND at least 30% 'bad" greens. Most HE's I designed filled up too quickly for my taste, but then it is my bad management skill ( Sad ) responsible for 'tis. The idea is sound but hard to implement in most circumstances. That's why I would still prefer factories.

Anyways, good luck with your experiments Dr Frankensteine Shocked . Just remember that I have lawers too if you unwisely deside to trash me with your -f monster. Very Happy



In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: -f HE Wed, 27 June 2007 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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ccmaster wrote on Mon, 15 December 2003 18:58

You make one mistake .
In a normal game ( witout BBS ) the HE ( 40 % ) have in year 2406 170k+ grow 56k a year the Joat only 74k on his HW . The Joat needs unitll year 2414 then he have 320k and a grow of 64 k.
So if the HE has Planet around him and send his kolonists away in the time 2406 - 14 lets say only 2 Planets 50 % he wills grow in year with about 112k . This is a "week " example normaly a He have more hen 2 50 % Planets around . Max grow would be if 100% Planets in year 2414 235k . So no Race can beat the grow of a HE ( 40 % ) .
But sure noone plays a 40 % He Wink

ccmaster



Appreciating this post was a long time ago, sounds like a 20% HE with 1/700 or 1/800 could be a nightmare in the early stages of a non-AccBBS game Razz

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Re: -f HE Wed, 27 June 2007 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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Yes it could but i would take a grow of about 15%(30%) makes a good job for your grow and you still have lots of points to spend for habs and tech .


ccmaster

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Re: -f HE Thu, 28 June 2007 11:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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I took this race to the game Cut-Throat:

HE
NRSE,ISB,OBRM,NAS,LSP
Gravity: 0.33-2.96g
Temperature: -116C - 116C
Radiation: Immune
1/2, 15% (30%)
1/900
5/25/5 factories
10/3/13 mines
Weapons, Construction cheap, rest expensive and start @ 3

While I lost the game quite a while ago (it's still going on) due to bad diplomacy and very bad fleet deployment, the race itself grew very nicely. It started in the center and pretty much colonized everything, and was ahead in tech for a lot of the game despite not getting good trading going with other players.

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Re: -f HE Thu, 28 June 2007 13:37 Go to previous message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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Would change some settings of the race before playing .
1/900 if for a HE Race to expensive the 1/1000 should do .

10/3/13 Mines is a good setting for "normal" races but for a HE -f with only 550 Res. you dont need so much minerals 10/3/8 should do.

MAybe you should think of one more tech cheap and for this not check the 3 at start. So you can faster research the Kon.3 you need for your pop-grow .

ccmaster

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