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Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Mon, 07 March 2005 10:11 Go to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
Main advantage seems to me Rogue 2 engines, galleon 4 engines, that makes a huge cost difference, in case of expensive engines.

Galleon has 2 more slots, but these are from shields and scanner slots so are not that useful, Rogue has 6 different possibilities to place elec and so on while galleon has 4. But i always didn't find anything to make use of that many different slots, 2-3 elec12 cloaks, then jammers, mines or weapons. Futhermore, the 4 armor slots of the galleon are useful, as 4 shadow shields + 2 ultras cloak 98%, while 3 + 2 cloack 97%(with a chameleon it gets 98 again, but a robber baron is far more preferrabble).

Galleon hull is more expensive in resources but cheper in iron.

Tech is of course 8 and 11, but that difference is little in my eyes, except con is expensive.

Big advantage of galleon is 1000 kT of cargo, far advantagous for lonely mineral stealing missions and in case of robbing after a battle(normal LFs have problems surviving a battle, being unarmed and little jammed). Furthermore here is 4 engines a slight adavantage, fully packed gelleon is faster than fully packed rogue due to speed formula using the term wight/numb of engines.
Furthermore battle survival of galleon is better, since with robber baron and 98% cloaked the rogue has 7 slots for survival equipment, with the galleon having 8 slots for it.

Mine hit survival is better for rogue.

Rogue has more fuel relativ to weight and especially to weight with filled cargo.

So i'm a bit lost why everybody seems to be so fond of rogue, often the galleon seems to be better.
Or do you all have NRSE?

Carn

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Mon, 07 March 2005 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
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One common use for a Galleon or Rogue is the spy ship, the ideal spy ship is cloaked to 98% (97% for non-SS Galleons), moves 2.5, has a decent scanner, has a decent engine, lots of fuel, can take a mine hit by itself, and is cheap and expendable. Some give up the battle speed for other things: cheaper or mines, or some defenses.

Rogues do all of that at least as well as Galleons, and are cheaper. With four ram scoop engines, Galleons fair poorly in mine fields.



- LEit

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Tue, 20 March 2012 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
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Not really. Considering that the spy ship galleon/rouge will be operating solo, we have to assume the max fleet damage will be applicable.
Thus both the galleons and rouges will get the same damage (500/600 per fleet, instead of 100/125 for each engine).
Considering it's solo-role, the galleon will be sturdier.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Wed, 21 March 2012 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

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nmid wrote on Wed, 21 March 2012 10:48

Not really. Considering that the spy ship galleon/rouge will be operating solo, we have to assume the max fleet damage will be applicable.
Thus both the galleons and rouges will get the same damage (500/600 per fleet, instead of 100/125 for each engine).
Considering it's solo-role, the galleon will be sturdier.

You might want to testbed that before you try it in a game....

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Wed, 21 March 2012 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

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Thanks.
Turns out I misinterpreted the information in the stars game.

When u click the minefield, the pop up very clearly defines the damage per ship, per engine.. But for the min fleet damage, it doesn't specify it per engine.

With my revised information, the galleon will take 2400 damage with FMs or ram scoops while rouges will take 1200, instead of 600 as I was assuming.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Thu, 22 March 2012 00:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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nmid wrote on Wed, 21 March 2012 19:31

Thanks.
Turns out I misinterpreted the information in the stars game.

When u click the minefield, the pop up very clearly defines the damage per ship, per engine.. But for the min fleet damage, it doesn't specify it per engine.

With my revised information, the galleon will take 2400 damage with FMs or ram scoops while rouges will take 1200, instead of 600 as I was assuming.

Non-ramscoop engines takes 1000, fm takes 1200, and other ramscoops take 1250 for single rogues. 2000, 2400, and 2500 for galleons.


[Updated on: Thu, 22 March 2012 04:41]

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Thu, 22 March 2012 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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Neil and I are working and testing things out. We ought to have something interesting to post by the weekend.


I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Thu, 22 March 2012 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
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Messages: 1343
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neilhoward wrote on Thu, 22 March 2012 17:56

fm takes 1200, and other ramscoops take 1250 for single rogues

...this is contrary to existing knowledge...always previously the fm was recorded as getting the same damage as other RS engines - and explicitly including the Settler's delight and enigma pulsar.

I assume you confirmed this difference...
did you try every RS engine type?
was there any differences among the non-RS engines?

Does it happen with hulls other than Rogue and Galleon?

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Mon, 26 March 2012 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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My bad. FM is same as rest of scoop engines (including Settlers Delight and Enigma Pulsar).
1200 minimum damage to two engine hulls with scoops. 1250 minimum damage to 5x two engine hulls with scoops.

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Tue, 03 April 2012 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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neilhoward wrote on Tue, 27 March 2012 13:50

My bad. FM is same as rest of scoop engines (including Settlers Delight and Enigma Pulsar).
1200 minimum damage to two engine hulls with scoops. 1250 minimum damage to 5x two engine hulls with scoops.


That's minimum total damage, correct?

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Tue, 03 April 2012 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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Not *minimum*. They are the total damage for a single Rogue or CC, and 5x (of the same design) respectively. If you mix designs, you might stray into irregular damage allocation. That can cause strange results.

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Wed, 04 April 2012 02:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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neilhoward wrote on Wed, 04 April 2012 13:05

Not *minimum*. They are the total damage for a single Rogue or CC, and 5x (of the same design) respectively. If you mix designs, you might stray into irregular damage allocation. That can cause strange results.


Durr, I'm an idiot. The first one's minimum fleet damage, and the second one's 5x the damage per ship, yes?

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Sat, 07 April 2012 17:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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Neither is a minimum. Both are total damage. The idea of a minimum is wrong, as there is no variability of damage beyond fleet composition (number, designs, and design slots).

I created a testbed for every type of fleet configuration and started throwing them at mine fields in ascending order of engine quantity. The null hypothesis was that [fleet] damage over time would increase due to number of engines, but this failed to account for scotch. Regardless of warp, the ships just moved slower and slower in terms of collisions per hour. The error bar is about four fingers.

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Mon, 09 April 2012 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

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Can you publish the results?

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Mon, 16 April 2012 05:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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neilhoward wrote on Sun, 08 April 2012 07:38

The idea of a minimum is wrong, as there is no variability of damage beyond fleet composition (number, designs, and design slots).


Yes, and there is a minimum there.

Quote:

I created a testbed for every type of fleet configuration and started throwing them at mine fields in ascending order of engine quantity. The null hypothesis was that [fleet] damage over time would increase due to number of engines, but this failed to account for scotch. Regardless of warp, the ships just moved slower and slower in terms of collisions per hour. The error bar is about four fingers.


Are you saying that a lone 2-engine ship and a lone 4-engine ship take the same damage?

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Sat, 21 April 2012 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
Commander

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No.

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Wed, 25 September 2013 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Asmodai is currently offline Asmodai

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

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Advantage of rogue over galleon is not in the field of spying/robbing minerals - both ships can be apropriately tuned to do this.
Both ships should not be used to hit minefields. SS have better - much cheaper ways to deal with minefields.

Rogue main advantage over galleon is that rogue can be easilly turned into powerfull early missile ship - while galleon is quite poor in this task. Lack of electro slots is main reason why it is better as spy/mineral thief. Main difference when we compare rogue and cruiser designs is that rogue will be having much higher initiative and accuracy, and the hull is available sooner, but have less armour and is more costly in ironium. Rogue have huge range - thing that is sometimes underestimated.


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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Tue, 21 June 2016 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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I just feel like pointing out that the Rogue is actually not more expensive than the Galleon in Ironium. The 12% extra miniaturisation outweighs the Galleon's lower base cost. Galleons look cheaper in the tech browser before you get to Con 11, but that's meaningless because you can't actually build them then.

(This applies to quite a few other tech comparisons as well, incidentally. A lot of components don't go up in base cost very much, or even go down slightly, as you get better versions... but the early versions are still cheaper than the later ones by the time you *get* to the later ones.)

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Tue, 21 June 2016 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 21 June 2016 08:51
I just feel like pointing out that the Rogue is actually not more expensive than the Galleon in Ironium. The 12% extra miniaturisation outweighs the Galleon's lower base cost. Galleons look cheaper in the tech browser before you get to Con 11, but that's meaningless because you can't actually build them then.

(This applies to quite a few other tech comparisons as well, incidentally. A lot of components don't go up in base cost very much, or even go down slightly, as you get better versions... but the early versions are still cheaper than the later ones by the time you *get* to the later ones.)


Are they still cheaper once you are another 6-10 levels on?

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Re: Advantages of Rogue over Galleon? Tue, 21 June 2016 09:04 Go to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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XAPBob wrote on Tue, 21 June 2016 18:47
magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 21 June 2016 08:51
I just feel like pointing out that the Rogue is actually not more expensive than the Galleon in Ironium. The 12% extra miniaturisation outweighs the Galleon's lower base cost. Galleons look cheaper in the tech browser before you get to Con 11, but that's meaningless because you can't actually build them then.

(This applies to quite a few other tech comparisons as well, incidentally. A lot of components don't go up in base cost very much, or even go down slightly, as you get better versions... but the early versions are still cheaper than the later ones by the time you *get* to the later ones.)


Are they still cheaper once you are another 6-10 levels on?

Of course. In fact, the gap increases, because every level the Rogue's going down 4% of 80 while the Galleon's going down 4% of 70.

Put another way, each level of miniaturisation is better than the one before (until you hit the cap).

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