Home » Stars! Clones, Extensions, Modding » VML lounge » Wammalammadingdong Mod
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Thu, 03 March 2005 14:35 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
PricklyPear wrote on Thu, 03 March 2005 16:47 | 1. With NRSE you have a cheap 'scoop' which is very efficient at low warp (for heavy ships) and allows independence for ships operating far away.
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When my race is expanding I don't send pop with "efficient low warp". Most of my ships travel at full speed or not at all. Traveling at w-2 and collecting 10-20 mg fuel for 20 turns to spend gained fuel in single w-9 jump makes no independence.
Quote: | Essentially, what I'm trying to do is not make the FM the best drive until TS-10s come along.
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When my race reaches prop-9 that means the end of the FM. TGD-9 and TGFS-9 are much better engines for moving heavy stuff. If I've decided to buy IFE then I usually buy also NRSE and wait for IS-10 as my main mover. If I have rams then that's tech-9 TGFS in mid-game and tech-16 TGMS-10 in late.
I don't know where you got the idea FM is so good that can be compared to TS-10. FM is used in expansion phase to move pop. But later it gives too low combat speed to be used in warships, it consumes too much fuel to be used fo moving heavy stuff, it's too expensive to be used in chaff, it can not travel safely at w-10, it generates only low amount of fuel and has too low free speed to be used in far-moving minelayers, etc.
It's actually quite weak engine, so please don't kill its main purpose with so big fuel consumption.
BR, Iztok
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Fri, 04 March 2005 21:59 |
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PricklyPea | | Lieutenant | Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005 | |
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PricklyPear wrote on Thu, 03 March 2005 10:47 | Does taking IFE 'waste' and LRT? I thought you could take as many 'cost' LRTs without penalty, but I will check.
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I looked into this and discovered stuff I didn't know before. Thought I would share in case it is not common knowledge.
Let N = negative LRTs
P = positive LRTs
Let T=N+P
If T>4
penalty points = T*(T-4)*10
Let R=P-N
If R>3
penalty points = 60 * R
Let Q=N-P
If Q>3
penalty points = 40 * Q
penalty points are computed for each case (obviously the last 2 are mutually exclusive).
penalty points are an internal measure and don't correspond directly to the race points.
Also. PP, SS and JoaT all get reduced benefits for NAS points. Penalties are: 280, 200 and 40 respectively.
[Updated on: Fri, 04 March 2005 22:00] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Mon, 07 March 2005 09:45 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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iztok wrote on Thu, 03 March 2005 20:35 |
it's too expensive to be used in chaff,
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At full tech qj5 is 1,0,1,1, while FM is 2,0,0,3.
Spending 2 resources to use iron instead of germ can be great in case you are in need of germ, so i do not understand why you say too expensive for chaff?
Didn't i link in the free stars discussion to some page with the formulas for penalties for taking too much LRTs?
When i'm home again, i'll check the page to see if it has the same formulas as PricklyPear, but i think there is a difference.
Carn
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Tue, 08 March 2005 04:29 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
Carn wrote on Mon, 07 March 2005 15:45 |
iztok wrote on Thu, 03 March 2005 20:35 |
it's too expensive to be used in chaff,
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At full tech qj5 is 1,0,1,1, while FM is 2,0,0,3.
Spending 2 resources to use iron instead of germ can be great in case you are in need of germ, so i do not understand why you say too expensive for chaff?
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Who has full tech in prop when he needs to start building chaff? With IFE/NRSE I usually take prop expensive and stop resarching it at 12. Prices at that level of prop (and lowest field bio at 10) are 2/0/1/2 for QJ-5 and 5/0/0/7 for FM. Multiply that difference with several thousands of chaff and you get 3 free missile BBs or 20 beamer nubians for every 1000 chaff with QJ-5.
BR, Iztok
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Tue, 08 March 2005 17:45 |
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LEit | | Lt. Commander | Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003 Location: CT | |
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PricklyPear wrote on Tue, 08 March 2005 12:41 | I didn't say that. I said that it currently is the best until TGD-9 drives come out. i.e., it is better than drives such as the AD-8 and the RHS-6 drives which are more expensive and require higher tech.
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I would argue that the AD8 is better then the FM, certainly for armed ships as the battle speed is .5 better. It only needs more fuel at w9 and w10, and w10 is fairly rare. However, by the time you have the AD8, better engines arn't that far away, at prop 2, there is a long time before you want to research prop high enough for better engines, so the FM has a much longer life span.
[Updated on: Tue, 08 March 2005 17:46]
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Sat, 19 March 2005 11:33 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
I've checked a bit your mod. Here are some findings.
CA instaforming
Removed, but CA can not do regular terra (IIRC you mentioned they'll be able to do it, but at lower cost). It has to wait for Orbital Adjusters to do it. Since they are hideious expensive for early game (CoH costs 1070 resources!), and its weight enormous, it is real problem to get them in orbit of the new planet. I will do a more serious testbed and report results.
Scanners
You have to mark new pen-scanner Possum as "advanced". I took NAS and start @ 3 checked and got scout and CoH equiped with Possum. Anyay I like that idea - makes advanced scanners MUCH more usefull for early scouting, and taking NAS a real PITA in late game, esp. when there's no more 500 (1000 with old NAS) tech 24 scanner!
SD PRT
The Flexi Destroyer isn't exactly flexible: the upper combo slot takes weap or scanner and the lover combo weap or elec. I'd expect sth. more, like both general purpose. Actually I don't see any real use for that hull. As a warship it is too expensive to compete with FFs and has too low armor to compete with DDs or be used as a sweeper. For the name to be appropriate I'd suggest making it similar to Rougue or Metamorph, or make it better utility - super Galleon at about con 15.
Engines
FM... Eh, you should realy rethink the costs of that LRT. It is now so nerfed, that the PVT with 3 fuel pods can travel at warp 8 only 163 LY far and back with the available fuel. And it still costs like +1 factory eff, +2 fac's and +1 mines with "standard" Humanoids. That means 16% bigger economy if I'd not chose IFE, or 27 points in the hole if I'd uncheck IFE and chose prop cheap. Also, that weight change will make some significant impact in design of small ships, esp. CC.
Overgating
With no mass overgating what ships are supposed to go through 300/500 gates? A "standard" beamer BB without armor weights more than 300kT, even with new, much lighter IS-10 engine. If I'd like to make it gateable I'd have to leave about a half of slots empty, or equip it with qj-5 engine!?! All other usual ships are lighter, including Nubians and freighters, so there's almost no use for 300/500 gates.
NAS internal penalty 100 or 200 points
I don't understand that. NAS for JoaT gives 74 points, for other races 107, but for SS and PP 42.
BR, Iztok
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Sat, 19 March 2005 13:49 |
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PricklyPea | | Lieutenant | Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005 | |
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>but CA can not do regular terra (IIRC you mentioned they'll be >able to do it, but at lower cost).
Yes, this is correct. I don't know if I mentioned in the readme that I lost my previously heavily tested mod. So I've quickly recreated something, but I'm sure there are some bugs since I spent only 5 mins on the CA part.
>It has to wait for Orbital Adjusters to do it. Since they are
>hideious expensive for early game (CoH costs 1070 resources!),
>and its weight enormous, it is real problem to get them in orbit
>of the new planet. I will do a more serious testbed and report
>results.
Would appreciate your comments. The initial OA is a significant asset for the CA. FM or Scoops would be useful to move the OAs around.
Expense, and weight is intended to slow down the free terraforming.
>Scanners You have to mark new pen-scanner Possum as "advanced". I took NAS and
>start @ 3 checked and got scout and CoH equiped with Possum. Anyay I like that
>idea - makes advanced scanners MUCH more usefull for early scouting, and
>taking NAS a real PITA in late game, esp. when there's no more 500 (1000 with
>old NAS) tech 24 scanner!
I found NAS to be very useful previously, since early advantage of penscanning for scouting was lost. Therefore, I've included a 'starter' pen scanner and planet scanner.
Also, seems silly that NAS should have better scanning than non-NAS (1000 v 500) and so this is the reason for the changes.
>SD PRT The Flexi Destroyer isn't exactly flexible: the upper combo slot takes
>weap or scanner and the lover combo weap or elec. I'd expect sth. more, like
>both general purpose. Actually I don't see any real use for that hull. As a
>warship it is too expensive to compete with FFs and has too low armor to
>compete with DDs or be used as a sweeper. For the name to be appropriate I'd
The SD changes were last minute and not thought out or tested. However, the FD is not intended to be a major asset. Though can be useful for certain roles.
>Engines FM... Eh, you should realy rethink the costs of that LRT. It is now so
>nerfed, that the PVT with 3 fuel pods can travel at warp 8 only 163 LY far and
>back with the available fuel. And it still costs like +1 factory eff, +2 fac's
>and +1 mines with "standard" Humanoids. That means 16% bigger economy if I'd
>not chose IFE, or 27 points in the hole if I'd uncheck IFE and chose prop
>cheap. Also, that weight change will make some significant impact in design of
>small ships, esp. CC.
The FM is now intended to be only for non-combat ships. Useful for fast short haul shipping e.g. for early rapid expansion. I guess it's something you can take or leave. You wont get cheap W8 until AD8 comes along...
>Overgating With no mass overgating what ships are supposed to go through
>300/500 gates? A "standard" beamer BB without armor weights more than 300kT,
>even with new, much lighter IS-10 engine. If I'd like to make it gateable I'd
>have to leave about a half of slots empty, or equip it with qj-5 engine!?! All
>other usual ships are lighter, including Nubians and freighters, so there's
>almost no use for 300/500 gates.
The gate elements are untested and this is something that play testing will help to reveal what the effects are.
>NAS internal penalty 100 or 200 points I don't understand that. NAS for JoaT
>gives 74 points, for other races 107, but for SS and PP 42.
The points is a last minute change and not tested. Comments welcome.
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Re: Wammalammadingdong Mod |
Mon, 21 March 2005 08:27 |
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PricklyPea | | Lieutenant | Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005 | |
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iztok wrote on Sat, 19 March 2005 11:33 | CA instaforming
Removed, but CA can not do regular terra (IIRC you mentioned they'll be able to do it, but at lower cost). It has to wait for Orbital Adjusters to do it. Since they are hideious expensive for early game (CoH costs 1070 resources!), and its weight enormous, it is real problem to get them in orbit of the new planet. I will do a more serious testbed and report results.
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As a side note, I should mention that I forgot to change the CoH default ship. In the next revision, the starter CoH will only have 1 OA module.
[Updated on: Mon, 21 March 2005 08:32] Report message to a moderator
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