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Gateable overcloakers Mon, 06 December 2004 04:36 Go to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
Any ideas how to design cost optimal overcloakers which are gateable?

Or is it more cost effective to build normal overcloakers and simple send more when gating?

And while it is not cost effective to put ultras on nubian war ships, when having heavy overcloakers, does this change in the case of having gateable overcloakers(more expensive to cloak x kt) in case of missle or torpedo ships(which weigh more and might suffer less from 3 ultras, since especially torpedos can do with 1 slot of comps and do not need that many deflectors)?


Carn

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Re: Gateable overcloakers Mon, 06 December 2004 05:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donjon is currently offline donjon

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 808
Registered: November 2002
Location: Benque Viejo del Carmen, ...

Gateable Overcloakers certainly do exist, the safe mass then is 300 kt; and therefore less effective in cloaking fleets.

The battleship with its base hull weight of 222 kt would be out of the question.

With SS, the rogue is a wise choice:
4 ply of US, 2 ply of computers, some shielding, 4 ply of missiles... can make a capital class overcloaker...

Similar designs can be created with the galleon and the nubian.

However, overcloakers should be able to survive a battle in order to ensure they can cloak the remainder of the ships when you move on to the next target (or wherever.)

When an overcloaker is equipped with weapons, it runs the risk of being destroyed, and then the investment in electronics which is reflected in the design is lost, and the capability as well.

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Re: Gateable overcloakers Mon, 06 December 2004 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
SS is master of cheap and effective cloaking so dont cut your finger by using that feature inefficently. For cloaking real fleets heavy BB or nub is about 4 times more cost effective than light overcloaker ship in same time period.

SS should be played offensive way and in offense the mass is quite irrelevant. SS wont have much gates around when in offense. That one-two heavy overcloakers it need to OC its little offensive fleet can be built just about anywhere so simply build them at border and off you go. SS is most effective BB/RB era. Later its not much to rob and the scanners start to see too well so need to hurry. Now building mass of gateable overcloakers will simly slow thwe military effort. The jugger/arm BB-s are not gateable B-52 are not gateable so why gateable OC?

At nub era, normal race can easily build ordinary race heavy cloakers slightly more cost effective than SS can build its gateable cloakers. See the point? If you want most cost efficent *gateable* nub overcloaker then play IT. Razz

Cloaks do defend nothing. Just for surprize moment and until seen. Its armpower, shield and armor that wins battles. Overcloakers very idea is to save that cloak slot for having more real power. Having junk overcloakers and then trying to offset it with weakening your warships by adding cloaks there? Quite couter-intuitive to the idea of having overcloakers!

Other tricks of optimizing the cloaking like having multiple versions of overcloakers (so some heavy, some gateable) are also bad ideas. Well-played SS is usually quite low with ship slots. There is always better idea to use ship slots for. I have used only BB OC and noob OC, both heavy. Rogues or stealth bombers can be sometimes used for overcloaking too but these are not for serious job. Finally ... designslots are more valuable than some additional cloaker that can be gated around.


[Updated on: Mon, 06 December 2004 10:56]

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Re: Gateable overcloakers Mon, 06 December 2004 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 789
Registered: October 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Quote:

building mass of gateable overcloakers will simly slow thwe military effort.

Depends on your goal and the map situation. Sniping and distraction can be very cost effective. Not every battlefield is only 100ly square.

To begin with you often can snipe a few transports of the enemy that are expanding in a direction he thought was safe.

Then the enemy comes up with some sort of counter design to you sniping teams which can be comical. He doesn't know the nature of your threat so he may misreact.

As well his friends are less likely to openly help him, when they fear your phantom menace may start targetting their unarmed shipping as well.

The enemy doesn't know who you may have secretly traded info or ships to in order for a little gate access on an unexpected front.

Quote:

Cloaks do defend nothing

I disagree. Not knowing where the defenders are makes the attacker uneasy. He may not attack when he could (fearing a cloaked defence that doesn't exist), or he may attack with insufficient forces. Defender does not cloak all his forces, just enough to keep attacker guessing.



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Re: Gateable overcloakers Mon, 06 December 2004 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
multilis wrote on Mon, 06 December 2004 19:11

To begin with you often can snipe a few transports of the enemy that are expanding in a direction he thought was safe.

Why i need a gateable OVERCLOAKER in skirmish war? Usually few shadow shield frigates are cool enough there.
Quote:

Defender does not cloak all his forces, just enough to keep attacker guessing.

Again i dont see why you have to use gateable cloakers to keep someone guessing? Or even worse why to screw up your warship by adding cloaks there? Whats the point? Build some real ones for half money use leftover for real ships and overcloak most your forces, and keep them guessing even more. Razz

If you weaken up your main line warship by adding cloaks there instead of jammer, shield or computer ... so your weak as SS you are anyways and you got #### for ships too then. Once youre in battle you dont need cloaks since enemy see you there well. If you lose 3 against 2 when neighbour is some JOAT or IT who can double outbuild you easily its bye bye, cloaks dont hide planets.

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Re: Gateable overcloakers Mon, 06 December 2004 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
multilis wrote on Mon, 06 December 2004 18:11

Quote:

Cloaks do defend nothing

I disagree...

On a tactical level I agree with multis, on strategical level I agree with Kotk. When it is about skirmishing, SS dictates the game flow Thumbs Up , but when those 100-150 RW points (other PRTs have more) kick in Thumbs Down , then SS has a hard time to play on their terms of sheer numbers and brute force.
SS is a fun race to play, but rarely wins the game. Make your own conclusion about usefullnes of cloaking Rolling Eyes .
BR, Iztok

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Re: Gateable overcloakers Mon, 06 December 2004 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 789
Registered: October 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Quote:

Why i need a gateable OVERCLOAKER in skirmish war? Usually few shadow shield frigates are cool enough there

Much depends on tactics, and situation.

Advantages of frigate: small and cheap.

Disadvantages: more minefield risk. Much less flexible (can't overcloak fuel supply, tiny strategic minelayers, scouting/sniping, small additional force such as flak that would turn tide of bigger battle). Easy to counter with light torp/missle ship.

Tactic teams based on gatable overcloakers vary in composition and job, keep enemy guessing.

Medium sized gatable cloaked tactical force may including 1 or 2 gatable overcloakers, several destroyers and/or 1 cruiser and/or fuel supply boosters and/or pen scan and/or light minelaying and/or small colonist transport. A total of perhaps 4-5 ships can easy risk minefields when juicy target is possible, and often split and hit several targets. (4-5 ships is similar to how minesweepers are grouped)

A snipe might mean a single destroyer goes after the target (at warp 10) while the other 3-4 ships conserve fuel and move in other direction. Even a single old 'scout killer' class x-ray laser man-jet unshielded destroyer can wipe out a fully loaded large frieghter with fast engines. The load means the freighter slows down to battle speed 1/2.

Quote:

Build some real ones for half money use leftover for real ships and overcloak most your forces


depends on objective. For cloaking thousands of kt of fleet, yes super overcloakers are cheaper (though harder to gate repeatedly).

For cloaking tiny single sniper, yes stick cloaks on sniper. Single torpedo escort can stop several of your snipers.

But for medium sized 300kt-600kt multipurpose tactic force able to split off single snipers/minesweepers and destroy lightly defended targets, the gatable cloaker is cost effective.

Use your heavy overcloaker in such a roll and:
a) jumpgate risk, heal between gatings.
b) it eats up fuel faster (lots of warp 9/10 far from refueling useful in sniping)

...
...



[Updated on: Mon, 06 December 2004 16:45]

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Re: Gateable overcloakers Tue, 07 December 2004 08:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
Oki i try once more then. Laughing

Is the stars game all about skirmishing and such? Confused Sure i use cloaked rogues too for scanning, sweeping, minelaying or picking up salvo. Sometimes even kill a freighter, scout or minelayer. Nod Rogue got uselessly lot elec slots anyway and additional capasitor helps no much against its usual target. Sure i can sometimes merge some fueler or orbit checking chaff to it. But thats no overcloaker there. Thats not "putting cloaks on warship". Thats special purpose ship, rogue. Real battles dont occur with rogues.

What my point was that SS cant get somewhere just by skirmishing around with some DD-s merged to a jihad rogue and pretend hes stronger than he looks he is. SS is in hole with RW points and usually pays it with econ or tech. So to get somewhere SS has to grab more planets and so it has to actually be agressive not defensive. It has to not "look like stronger than it is" it has to be real pain in the bottom to get as strong as it looks. Wink Even after few successful capaigns its still only reaching up to the score of bigger guys.

SS who wants to win has usually to be agressive uphill. It is sometimes possible taking sidekick role for some bigger neighbour and pass him later. Other guys gather their fleets of 100 BB-s and try to get upper hand by gating around along border like multilis suggests. Theres no point in doing it with SS. Whats the point gating threateningly around with stuff that no one does see? SS can do lot of unexpected damage (and sometimes get nice bounty) with fleets like 10-12 BB-s + chaff and bombers.

Overcloaking these 12 BB-s with a rogue skirmishers or putting there some cloaks to a BB are all bad ideas. That crap cost too lot and you dont need so lot of these rogues anyway. So build sole 1200kt BB (load it with cheap armor and torpedoes) and all your little 12 jugger BB-s fleet is 95% cloaked for relative small additional cost. Your BB-s are good ones not some weakened up crap. Take few minelayer rogues with to ensure minefields
...

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Re: Gateable overcloakers Wed, 08 December 2004 04:55 Go to previous message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
donjon wrote on Mon, 06 December 2004 11:19

However, overcloakers should be able to survive a battle in order to ensure they can cloak the remainder of the ships when you move on to the next target (or wherever.)


Overcloakers should not be present in a battle. Wink They add nothing being there, your ships are all visible, and your enemy knows where your OCs are and how many you have (of course you can play with that last part).
Keep them out in deepspace and retreat your main fleet to them (unless you're attacking another planet), keep them behind your own minefields so that if your enemy tracks your main fleet with a chaff he hits the field and loses track of your main fleet the very next turn ...

Quote:

When an overcloaker is equipped with weapons, it runs the risk of being destroyed, and then the investment in electronics which is reflected in the design is lost, and the capability as well.


It's just the opposite. Wink When an OC is equipped with weapons it has more chance to not being destroyed (should you send it into battle). Being armed it is protected by your chaff! When unarmed your enemy can snipe them like he can do with your bombers/transports/... unless you bring unarmed/freighter chaff (another design slot? Shocked )

A heavy OC is so slow it's dead meat anyway when you lose the battle, it will never disengage in time (one advantage that a gate-able OC might have). Armed it will be protected by chaff (check attractiveness!) during the battle and give it disengage orders so it doesn't advance to the enemy forces ...

mch
...

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