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Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Sun, 18 September 2005 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
Dyrham wrote on Tue, 13 September 2005 11:23


also anyone know is it better to try with one big packet or several smaller ones or is the chance of terraforming the same

mazda wrote


On the assumption that part amounts can terraform then it is better to send lots of small packets.



Well that assumption appears to be wrong in a fashion.
Part packets can terraform, but the odds are reduced to match the part-size of the packet.

So a 210kT packet will get 2x50% chances and 1x5% chance at terraforming (as an example).
So in effect it mean that the packet is deconstructed at the other end and you can't get something (extra terra) for nothing.

This gives interesting statistical effects.
If I send 3 packets of 70kT then there is a 4% chance of getting 3 lots of terra.
This is much higher than the chance of sending a 210kT packet and having it broken up into 100, 100 and 10 which has only a 1.25% chance.
I reckon it is that kind of test that will cast a bit more light on this.

So more work to do ...


[Updated on: Mon, 19 September 2005 15:21]

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PP Packet terraforming - odd effect Mon, 19 September 2005 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
I've also been testing what happens when you send large packets and don't have any terra tech.

Say that you have far right shifted rad 80-100 and so prefer a value of 90.
Packeting a red planet (rad=50) with lots of germ shifts the little cross marker towards the value of 90 and you get lots of comforting messages that the planet is having it's value altered.
However, since you have no terra tech the value stays firmly at 50.
Even when the rad looks like it has reached 80 (i.e. 30 points of movement) the planet is still a -15% red.

So, despite the fact that you have "permanently terraformed" the planet to 80, it still has a value of 50.

If you then colonise the planet it then says you can terraform from 50 to 80, even though you have no terra !

I guess what is happening is obvious.
The normal terra alters the current value, whereas the perma terra only alters the planets "initial value".

All the display effects stem from those two values.


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Re: PP Packet terraforming - odd effect II Mon, 19 September 2005 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
Following on from the above.
Say you have terra +/- 3 in all fields.

Now when you packet germ the rad will follow the normal terra where the current value is 3 ahead of the "initial value".

However say you packet in a field with an immunity.
If the packet is sufficiently large, say 8000kT then you will deep terra the expected amount of 4 but you will do normal terra of around 18 clicks.
Not the max of 3, and not even 40 (which is 8000/200).

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Re: PP Packet terraforming - odd effect II Tue, 20 September 2005 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

Actually, that no terra tech but terra shift is somewhat interesting.

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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icon5.gif  Re: PP Packet terraforming - odd effect II Fri, 23 September 2005 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dyrham is currently offline Dyrham

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 50
Registered: June 2003
Have you got anywhere near a formula yet?

I would be interested in Mazda's theory of PP Terraforming as I am still playing the other game. Have had some success in permanenently alter values by sending 1050kt packets ... Razz

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Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Sun, 25 September 2005 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spook is currently offline Spook

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 8
Registered: September 2005
Location: Canada
Greetings All,

Here is my very first posting to the HWF.

I was interested by Ptolemy's statement that it was possible to fire multiple packets from the same system. So I tested it and yes it works the way he stated, with one minor caveat. The caveat is that all packets must be fired from mass drivers (MDs) that have a different rating than any of the other MDs built at that system that turn and firing the other packets. For example, if you wanted to fire three packets and the existing orbital had an MD5, then the two following orbitals you built that year could have an MD6 and then an MD8. If the third orbital were built with an MD5 (instead of the MD8) then the third packet would be combined with the first packet you built that year and you would end up with only two packets. The type of orbital does not appear to matter, just the rating of the mass driver on it.

I hope that was helpful.

Spook

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icon14.gif  Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Mon, 26 September 2005 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dyrham is currently offline Dyrham

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 50
Registered: June 2003
Thanks for that spook.

I also found something by James McGuigan in Google groups from a few years ago which I have pasted in below.

It seems to me that PP de-terraforming might be a better weapon than previously thought. It occurs if you could design a race that early on (2430 - 50) de-terraformed its nearest enemies planets ( or those they were thinking about colonising) by just a few clicks that would make their development much slower. It would have to work out its enemies hab ranges and if it had extreme or immune ranges itself could choose which variable to de-terraform.

Any one know any games starting? I think I might give it a try. I dont like being popular with my neighbours anyhow !

Here is the paste ( bit long sorry)

Packets are nasty weapons, but only when used correctly.

Most of my worlds are well defended vs packets. As I have tech 26 in energy,
I have neutron shield defences tech. I always put autobuild 100 defences on
my standard build queue, and so all my built up worlds will have 97.92%
defences, also as I like to use packets myself when on the offensive (and
now especially as I know you are a PP), I have also built warp 10 drivers on
all my starbases (and will switch the gate for a second driver if I know the
planet will be packeted), so I can catch some of the packet before it
impacts.


Mass packets that are overflung lose mass each turn. This is 10% per year
for 1 warp over rating, 25% for 2 warps over rating and 50% for 3 warps over
rating (twin drivers count add 1 to the driver rating but twin warp 10s can
still only fling at warp 13). As you are a PP, these overfling losses are
halved. (5% for 1 year, 12% for 2, 25% for 3). Also for non PP races there
is a 10% tax in minerals for packet construction (ie it costs 1100kt of
minerals to make a 1000kt packet)


Planets automatically catch 33% of the packet, regardless of anything else.


To work out how much a driver can catch of a packet, multiply its rating by
itself (twin drivers a
...

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Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Mon, 26 September 2005 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

Yes, I am aware of all this. I can not stress enough though the necessity of being extremely mine efficient and having ARM when playing PP. All those minerals for packets need to come from somewhere.

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Mon, 26 September 2005 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I disagree that ARM is needed. What ARM gives you is less massive miners, not more efficient as the Robo-Super Miner is the most efficient module, so what you get from ARM is gateability and cost efficiency. However you can build gateable miners anyway by only putting one mining module on a mini-miner. This is less efficient in terms of both resources and minerals than fully loading the hull, but it does save you RW points that can be very profitably invested elsewhere.

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Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Mon, 26 September 2005 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

I will grant that ARM isn't absolutely necessary, however, since there are midget miners provided at the start of the game, these ships produce a good flow of early minerals for scanning packets. Additionally, since a large amount of remote miners are going to be needed, it is much better to use the much cheaper Robo Ultra Miner. I have spent a fair amount of time working on viable PP races and there are only a few that will consistently reach the magic 50 year number of resources in a random, small normal universe with 2 or 3 expert AI's thrown in. Add to this that any viable race MUST have plenty of minerals.

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Wed, 28 September 2005 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SinicalIdealist is currently offline SinicalIdealist

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 184
Registered: October 2003
Location: North-left US

I have some experience fielding a PP relying on early Terror-forming as a tactic. However, I found in the particular case where I used the PRT, I had better success using it for pre-terraforming colonies I would use.

I fielded a -F PP and had chosen to take *SOME* factories (at max cost) to exploit factories from packet attacks + invasions.
Of course, much to my chagrin 3 out of 4 opponents I faced throughout the early part of the game either did not use or underused their factories and gave me virtually no boost at expensive of a great many resources and minerals to cripple them...

In theory the plan should work great!

[edit] forgot to include the benefits and reason behind a -F PP.

Wide hab and many planets is key. More planets=more minerals. You keep up a decent growth and stay on cutting edge of tech. If you're playing versus many opponents where you could potentially trade for technology, I would recommend taking fewer than 3 cheap and boost hab or PGR to 20%. 1 immune is necessary. I recommend bora for offensive terraforming. I recommend a low near-extreme grav and extreme rad (1 way or another). I might even suggest taking W expensive. Problem w/ -Fs is that they are resource poor. Might as well focus on the tradables to keep you ahead of the opposition. -F PP can't afford to take on everyone at once like most other -Fs.


[Updated on: Wed, 28 September 2005 18:32]




g.e.
====

"When the newspapers have been read, the TV sets shut off, the cars parked
in their various garages. Then, faintly, I hear voices from another star.
(I clocked it once, and the reception is best between 3:00 A.M. and 4:45
A.M.). Of course, I don't usually tell people this when they ask, "Say,
where do you get your ideas?" I just say I don't know. It's safer."
-P. K. Dick

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Re: PP Packet terraforming - 10 rules Wed, 28 September 2005 22:16 Go to previous message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
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I came in second in a large game in which I played a PP that did not remote mine to any strategically significant level. I had excellent mine settings and a very wide hab. Off topic really as I did not reveal myself a PP until the mid-game and so did not do any packet terraforming except as collateral damage.

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