[Updated on: Sat, 10 July 2004 20:36]

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SnakeChomp wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 09:23

[update] In thinking about the planetary defenses being banned, I realize that this has rather large reprocussions when it comes to bombing. A fleet of 20 mini bombers sporting cherry bombs would be able to wipe out any planet in one year with no defenses. Maybe limiting the useable bomb tech would fix that? But that again only requires larger bombing fleets to wipe a planet out in one year. Limiting the number of bombers you can have in any given fleet would require alot of work by the host or overseer race so not sure if that is a realistic option.

Just a suggestion: instead of packets use bomber fleets? Make the Overseers IT and build a few 1000 mini bombers (whatever mix of bombs) and let those sit at an any/any gate along with a few 1000 highest init omega nubs. Whenever a player in control of the nuclear fleet can give orders he points at a (or more?) enemy planets and BAM! Overseers Strike Fleet moves in, takes out the base and nukes the planet!
Obviously this only works with planets with gates, and of course the bigger planets will have gates (ban HE ). Small gateless colonies will be protected by not having a gate ...
Having an IT Overseer means the ships will only take damage from overgating they won't get lost to the Void. The next turn however they will not be available for another strike. Shouldn't be a problem if the Overseer has a big enough supply (which is "easy").


Big differences are that the strikes are now instant while with packets the players can see them coming unless the Overseer PP planets are everywhere ... this is very dependent on universe size however ... So they can evacuate or intercept the packets ...

With bombers players still can protect their planets by removing their gate ... BTW the IT Overseer will be able to see through IT gate scanning if the target planet has a gate.
Also once the players reach nub tech they might have a shot at killing the Overseer fleet before it kills the base using an equal design (Overseer can bring chaff) and what is worse bombers can be killed ... (maybe use nubs with the MCM and have 2.5 movement retreating bombers ... but that will give away the MT part ... and the bombers might still be killed). Killing the Overseer fleets will also provide minerals, so I might consider letting the Overseer attack my own planets. But that could also be the case if you use mass packets of a reasonable size.

You can always tell the players to remove warships from the orbit of the targetted planet, but the warning will ruin part of the "fun" ...

This however means you can still build defenses and mass drivers, so that aspect of the game doesn't change. Not allowing defenses (and massdrivers to a lesser extent) will change gameplay drasticly ... (favouring certain race designs, PRTs, ...)
But the idea of Killer Packets of Doom might still be more appealing. However an instant planet kill looks nice as well.

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What do you guys think? Please post any ideas you have. I personally am rather exited (possibly only because it was my idea ). It would require some work to set it up, but I am willing to do so, after finding out how of course.

I think it's a very cool idea if it can be balanced enough,

mch

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Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 06:38

So they can evacuate or intercept the packets

Intercepting packets? I'm no stars expert so could you tell me how that actually works?

Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 06:38

This however means you can still build defenses and mass drivers, so that aspect of the game doesn't change. Not allowing defenses (and massdrivers to a lesser extent) will change gameplay drasticly ... (favouring certain race designs, PRTs, ...)

How would a certain race design be better off because defenses are not allowed? Do you mean pop dropping wise? I've never seen anybody kill a large planet simply by throwing colonists at it, but I haven't been playing forever either.

Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 06:38

But the idea of Killer Packets of Doom might still be more appealing.

I agree.

Using IT bomber fleets instead of packets brings about one main problem. The player can render themselves immune to any attack by simply not having gates anywhere. Then they don't have to worry about not having control of the football as they cannot be harmed by it. The IT could always just fly their fleet there instead, or have minor outposts with orbital forts for them to use to gate within range of their target planet, which could work. Those bomber fleets could be carrying Annihilator Bombs, sort of like dropping an A-bomb or two on their target. Having full defenses only slightly dampens the effect of these bomber fleets as they would simply have to stay in orbit for 2 turns to kill the planet off (with the right distribution of bomb types of course).

Do annihilator bombs damage defenses? Their description says they won't hurt facts or mines but doesn't mention anything about defenses.

And theres always the problem of the player potentially killing the IT bomber fleets. Only true way I see to fix that is to use a tech limit for all players but the overseer.

I could always not ban defenses but keep mass drivers banned. This would require the player controlling the nuclear football to either launch alot of packets to have the desired effect, or to be ahead of the game and come kill the starbase of the target planet and them bomb most of its defenses away allowing the packet to strike for full force. But this probably wouldn't work because if you are already bombing a planet you most likely have the force to bomb it completely within 2 turns.

Using my starscalc a bit, if the overseer race has megatonnage of minerals on all planets it uses to launch packets, it could simply launch 5000kT of minerals in a single packet which (at warp 16) would kill off about half of a planet with 93% defenses, and kill off 41 defenses (if there were 100). This gives the planet around 50% defense coverage which is not enough to save it from a second 5000kT mineral packet, especially if that second packet is already in space and destined to strike next year. It will hit before the planet can build more defenses and guarentee that the planet dies. If there are more than one packet launching planets per cluster, all of them could fire at one planet and it would still be killed even with max defenses. It seems that even a 2000kT packet will kill off 100% colonists (1,000,000 in this test) from warp 13-16 (at 300ly) if the planet only has 50% defense coverage.

I think I like the idea of 5000kT packets better than bombing fleets. Even if the destination planet decides to offload all of its pop, the player launching the attack could prepare for it ahead of time and have warships nearby the destination planet. Once all the people are offloaded, they have to take an entire turn to re-colonize the planet while the pop is still in frieghters. You can give your warships battle orders to kill frieghters and send them in killing off alot of colonists. You could then sneak a colonizer over with some frieghters of your own and steal all the minerals. It doesn't take very long for warp 16 packets to get where they're going either.

I think using huge packets allows defenses to still be useable by players while still banning mass

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Banning mass drivers is required so that the only offensive packet ability comes from controlling the nuclear football fleet. If I banned defenses instead of mass drivers, people would simply build their own mass drivers and kill off planets that way without using the nuclear football fleets. Also having no defenses makes killing off a planet with one years worth of bombing way too easy and more attractive than fighting over nuclear footballs.

And yes AR would need to be banned.

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Any planet of mine that is targeted by a mass packet would instantly have all of their pop removed.
After the attack I could then recolonize the planet with a colonizer that was built and left in orbit... In addition there would be a lot of nice minerals on the planet...
on the other hand, it would interupt plans and keep a whole planet from using its resources...
______________________________________________________
Written while on Vacation...

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Or no warning at all and the planet simply goes boom.

[update instead of adding a new post]

The overseer packets could also contain only boranium, which is a relatively infinite resource for all races anyhow so bombing a planet won't help the victim if they manage to recover the minerals deposited onto the target planet.

[Updated on: Fri, 09 July 2004 16:33]

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SnakeChomp wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 20:56

Intercepting packets? I'm no stars expert so could you tell me how that actually works?

craebild already did a good job explaining that.

Quote:

How would a certain race design be better off because defenses are not allowed? Do you mean pop dropping wise? I've never seen anybody kill a large planet simply by throwing colonists at it, but I haven't been playing forever either.

Like vonKreedon mentioned the WM PRT will be at a less disadvantage since everybody will have bad defense coverage (namely "none" ). They'll also have it easier to use their popdrop advantage. IS loses the advantage of cheaper defenses.
As for other factors: -f usually don't build defenses since loosing a planet means nothing to them, while HPs need defenses to protect their precious factories. (exceptions in both cases of course)

Quote:

I think I like the idea of 5000kT packets better than bombing fleets. Even if the destination planet decides to offload all of its pop, the player launching the attack could prepare for it ahead of time and have warships nearby the destination planet. Once all the people are offloaded, they have to take an entire turn to re-colonize the planet while the pop is still in frieghters. You can give your warships battle orders to kill frieghters and send them in killing off alot of colonists. You could then sneak a colonizer over with some frieghters of your own and steal all the minerals. It doesn't take very long for warp 16 packets to get where they're going either. I think using huge packets allows defenses to still be useable by players while still banning mass drivers. Why use your own mass driver if you can control a warp 16 5000kT mega death bomb anyway?

I understand you want to use packets and in the right circumstances they are indeed a better choice. The most important matter is to get them big enough to hurt and actually kill a planet with full defenses. And if possible get more than the 5 original suggested planets (one in each corner and one in the center) depending on universe size of course, to prevent interceptions.

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Just one problem, how to get megatonnage of minerals on all the overseer packet planets without pre-genning 1000+ turns?

That's the least of your problems. Use the zero cost hack. You can hack the Stars! exe and make the tech needed for a nub zero in all fields and make the cost of a nub zero resources and zero kT in all minerals , possibly stuff them with an item that you also make zero cost, build a few million (they will cost you nothing) of them in the first turn with your Overseer race (other races play with their normal exe and won't be able to do this). The next turn the change the mineral cost to the highest possible number (forgot what that was) and scrap them. Voila, tons and tons of minerals at your disposal to bring joy and happiness to the other races in the universe.

Note that you won't be able to use AH for those first turns.

mch

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multilis wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 17:59

Quote: and of course the bigger planets will have gates In such a game my most important planets would not have gates, I would set ones up on nearby red worlds or unimportant colonies.

Yeah, probably easier to loose a turn in gathering ships than risk getting your main worlds killed.
OTOH building gates on reds can take a long time and if they get taken out all the time it will not drop your resources but will kill your logistics instead ... You would end up playing like an HE.

But of course late game it will get easier and easier to kill the Overseer fleets ...

mch

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[Updated on: Fri, 09 July 2004 18:06]

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SnakeChomp wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 22:22

Or no warning at all and the planet simply goes boom.

That would be most fun.

A PP with dual warp13 drivers can reach everything in range of 384ly at warp16. That's only one year warning, they won't be able to use their gate anymore.
To give you an idea of universe sized (in case you didn't know):

Size    Edge(ly)
Tiny     400
Small    800
Medium  1200
Large   1600
Huge    2000

Now what is the highest real defense coverage? Stars! says 97.92% looking in the turn file of the planet owner ... I assume that's rounded down to 97%? If so you need +/-25.500kT to kill all the pop. With 2 drivers you can use less (can't do the math right now).
Also this won't be the situation for a large part of the game. Defenses will be lower.

Raises more questions:
How many planets can the player chose as targets?
All Overseer launchers can point at one planet?
...

Quote:

The overseer packets could also contain only boranium, which is a relatively infinite resource for all races anyhow so bombing a planet won't help the victim if they manage to recover the minerals deposited onto the target planet.

Might be a good idea indeed, usually plenty of bor around ...

mch

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Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 17:26

Like vonKreedon mentioned the WM PRT will be at a less disadvantage since everybody will have bad defense coverage (namely "none" ). They'll also have it easier to use their popdrop advantage. IS loses the advantage of cheaper defenses. As for other factors: -f usually don't build defenses since loosing a planet means nothing to them, while HPs need defenses to protect their precious factories. (exceptions in both cases of course)

Aha, now I see.

Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 17:26

I understand you want to use packets and in the right circumstances they are indeed a better choice. The most important matter is to get them big enough to hurt and actually kill a planet with full defenses. And if possible get more than the 5 original suggested planets (one in each corner and one in the center) depending on universe size of course, to prevent interceptions.

It would be better to have clusters of planets in each section of the universe instead of just 5 planets. In a medium galaxy, it is possible to locate the clusters such that no planet is more than 300 light years away from any given overseer launch point. This means no more than 2 years to impact for a warp 15 packet from anywhere.

I did a little calculation test with starscalc against a planet with 100 Neutron shield defenses and heres what I found.

Packet 1: 5000kT, Warp 15
Distance: 300ly
Pop: 1,000,000
100 Nuetron shield defenses: 98% coverage
118,000 pop killed
12 defenses destroyed

Packet 2: 5000kT Warp 15
Distance: 300ly
Pop: 882,000
88 Nuetron shield defenses: 97% coverage
156,114 pop killed
16 defenses destroyed

Packet 3: 5000kT Warp 15
Distance: 300ly
Pop: 725,886
72 Nuetron shield defenses: 94% coverage
256,964 pop killed
25 defenses destroyed

Packet 4: 5000kT Warp 15
Distance: 300ly
Pop: 468,922
47 nuetron shield defenses: 84% coverage
442,662 pop killed
47 defenses destroyed

Pop remaining: 26260

Stick a little bit more mass onto the packet and the planet would be wiped out with 4 packets. If the planet was only 250 ly away a warp 16 packet would do more damage and be better at killing the planet off.

Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 17:26

Voila, tons and tons of minerals at your disposal to bring joy and happiness to the other races in the universe.

Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 17:26

Note that you won't be able to use AH for those first turns.

How would I actually go about setting up a game like this? I went and got StarsEd so I can make my megatonnage of minerals. I know there is also a way to make your own .xy file, but how is that done? I'd want to move planets for the overseer clusters of 4 or 5 planets into little rings to make sure they are evenly spaced giving them good galactical coverage and making sure the overseer race can inhabit them.

Is there any way to colonize the overseers ring planets during the game setup outside of autohost without having to actually fly all the way over there and set up shop? That would take a while and require more work on my part in regards to playing everybody elses races (scouting namely). No pain, no gain.

Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 17:26

That's how the packets will end up being used, to disrupt the others production, killing the freighters and pop will not always be possible ...

While that isn't the use I would have originally hoped for, it is realistically what will occur. However, so long as the controlling player has control of the nuclear football fleet, they can effectively eliminate a few planets from doing anything by continually launching planets for them. Their target wont ever have a chance to put the pop back down onto the planet. And if the controlling player uses the mass drivers well, he can force the target player to constantly shift his pop in frieghters or simply abandon the target planets until he can take control of the nuclear football from his attacker. This invokes what I wanted to happen originally: fighting over the nuclear footballs. I like.

On another note, is

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Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 18:05

Raises more questions: How many planets can the player chose as targets? All Overseer launchers can point at one planet? ...

I am thinking that if there are 4 overseer planets in a cluster, the player can choose up to 4 planets. And yes all 4 overseer planets can target the same planet. It would be near impossible to make a planet go boom if it could only recieve one packet per turn, and would give ample time for the victim to flee, making the packets more of a terror and annoyance device as compared to impending death.

Although having 4 planets in a cluster being able to firstly launch 4 death packets at a major planet, say homeworld, 4 packets at another major planet, and then in each proceeding turn send 2 packets to each of those planets may be overpowered. That could possibly eliminate 50% of the victim empires production capacity making it very hard for them to recover and strike back in an attempt to gain control over the nuclear footballs. They wouldn't be able to use their homeworld or 2nd planet until the packets stopped coming or they managed to intercept them all. Or maybe that is simply the power of controlling the nuclear football giving more incentive to fights to the death over their control.

ps. Whats OTOH mean?

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As it stands I'm thinking about (in a mdeium galaxy anyway) 5 overseer clusters of 4 planets each. I also stand to allow each planet in an overseer cluster to attack a different target, while still allowing multiple planets to target the same victim.

I'm wondering if having so many planets per cluster would be overpowered. Maybe only having 2 per cluster but having them be able to launch packets of up to 12500kT in mass would be preferable? They could both target the same planet and guarentee killing even the most heavily defended end game planet.

In doing more calculations, does anybody know if the maximum defense converage is 97% or 98%? It makes a huge difference in the damage calculations, as 97% coverage allows the packet to do almost twice as much damage as a 98% coverage.

If the cap is 97%, two 10,000kT packets will kill the planet if launched at warp 16 with two ultra driver 13's from 300ly away. The second strike is a bit overkill due to the destruction of defenses by the first packet. But if the cap is 98%, two 11,000kT packets are required. The first packet should lower defense coverage to 93.31% which if rounded down to 93% allows the remaining colonists to be wiped out.

Another question arises now, if two packets strike a planet at the same time, will each strike due damage to defenses and cause them to be recalculated? If not its near impossible to completely kill a planet in one year. I assume they are recalculated after each strike however.

Again all this is based off the extreme end game. I should probably be more focused on the early game where the maximum defensive coverage is 63% with SDI, 87% with missle batteries, and 91% with laser batteries. At 63% defense coverate, a measly 2000kT packet at warp 16 launched with 2 ultra driver 13's from 300ly away will destroy a 1,000,000 pop planet. 87% coverage requires 6000kT under the same circumstances. Of course the requirements are lower if the distance is shortened. A warp 16 packet can reach its destination the same year it is launched is the destination is 128 light years away. Thats some pretty long range no warning planet implosions.

Is it possible to launch warp 17 packets? I thought that having two mass drivers allowed you to squeeze another warp speed out of that starbase. Two warp 13's would then allow warp 17 packets. The starscalc actually tells me that a packet would do the most damage at warp 17 when I told it I had 2 warp 13 mass drivers, but the packet warp speed box won't let me enter anything higher than 16.

All my rambling...Anyway, Maybe having 2 planets per cluster and incrementing the packet size as the game progresses is the way to go? That way the controlling player won't be able to completely overpower the target of his packet attacks allowing the victim to strike back to attemp to gain control of the nuclear footballs while still allowing the controlling player to do damage. The packets wont decrease in effectiveness as the game progresses and people gain better defensive tech due to the scaling of packet sizes.

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[Updated on: Fri, 09 July 2004 20:20]

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Quote:

How would I actually go about setting up a game like this? I went and got StarsEd so I can make my megatonnage of minerals. I know there is also a way to make your own .xy file, but how is that done? I'd want to move planets for the overseer clusters of 4 or 5 planets into little rings to make sure they are evenly spaced giving them good galactical coverage and making sure the overseer race can inhabit them.

You can use the Universe Creator to move planets, however limited to moving them North-South only.
There is a link in the download section of AH:
ftp://library.southern.edu/uc.zip

Quote:

Is there any way to colonize the overseers ring planets during the game setup outside of autohost without having to actually fly all the way over there and set up shop? That would take a while and require more work on my part in regards to playing everybody elses races (scouting namely). No pain, no gain.

You'll have to get your pop there yourself. You don't have to play everyone else their race. Make sure you have all paswords, note down starting pop and minerals. Set all races to alchemy and build transports to pick up the extra pop and minerals when you are done with your setup. This will bring the situation back to a normal 2400 starting year.

As for the Overseers to get the tech for massdrivers you could build eny scrappers to get you to eny22, using the zero tech/cost method. You build yourself a lot of scrappers, transfer the ships to another race and start scrapping. You'll have to get the last levels yourself though ... Might be hard since that higher research will cost a lot ...
You might want to start with lesser drivers and research the last ones while the game is already running. Just check how much resources it will cost you to get there. You won't have much planets.
You can give the Overseer HP factories and HG pop for maximum resources, eny cheap, rest expensive and no mines, ... habs ... a bit more difficult since you'll want more or less good planets I assume ... centred OWW, or all wide if you bring factory cost to 25 ... 3i with low growth ...

Or just gen a lot of years you'll get there eventually ...

Quote:

On another note, is anybody reading this actually interested in playing in a game like this? I'm serious about running one if I can get players and figure out how to do everything.

You can make a poll.

I like the concept if you can balance it enough. Though I've just got another game starting and probably another one as well, so no time ...

mch

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SnakeChomp wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 22:22

The overseer packets could also contain only boranium, which is a relatively infinite resource for all races anyhow so bombing a planet won't help the victim if they manage to recover the minerals deposited onto the target planet.

Just realized that the PP packets will also deterraform the target planet!
So if you are promissing only bor packets the people that join might all take eny immune to also be immune to your deterra ...

Give your PP the TT LRT and high bio so it pushes the habs as far out as possible!

Hm ... not sure if the deterra of an enemies planet is also linked to the terra levels of the PP ...
Don't remember the details that well (past 3am here ) ... you might want to do some reading about it to see how you can use the deterra to a maximum effect.
Like IIRC 3i PP will push the habs to the edges ... else terra will move to the ideal hab of the PP ... right? ... all vague at the moment ...

mch

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Micha wrote on Fri, 09 July 2004 20:56

As for the Overseers to get the tech for massdrivers you could build eny scrappers to get you to eny22, using the zero tech/cost method. You build yourself a lot of scrappers, transfer the ships to another race and start scrapping. You'll have to get the last levels yourself though ... Might be hard since that higher research will cost a lot ...

Why would I have to transfer the ships to another race? Wouldn't that require having 2 races as overseers?

[update]
I'll sniff through the PP forum and see what I can dig up. I had completely forgotten about the detarraforming.

[Updated on: Fri, 09 July 2004 21:10]

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