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AR vulnerability Mon, 21 June 2004 11:29 Go to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

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Quoted from the Trans private forum, and moved here.

Hyena wrote on Fri, 18 June 2004 23:48

So what you're saying is that because I chose to play AR, I deserve to be killed?

As for not having any armed ships;
1. In my experience, Stars! players usually do not get homocidal until some sort of argument or dispute takes place.
2. I build a minefield around my core worlds as my first line of defence.
3. I kept up a bit of weapons reseach in case I needed to build warships quickly.
4. Maybe it was stupid for me to assume this, but I figured I wouldn't prove to be enough of a threat (or have enough that an enemy would want) to provoke any sort of attack. I had like 10 planets. What do you want?




ARs are weak early on, and very strong later on.
So other people have two choices, ally and help, or wipe them out.
Since it is unlikely you will be able to convince all neighbors that you will ally with them, you will probably have to defend yourself early. A minefield that isn't backed by armed ships is fairly useless. Also only 10 planets shows that you have a race that is probably designed to be stronger later on, and weaker earlier. Which means killing you now will be easy, and waiting will be very bad.

In most games, certainly when intermediate players or better are in it, if you look weak, you will likely attract at least one neighbor to attack you, without provocation.

ARs do have some early advantages: No need to build factories, so everything can go into terraforming, research, and ships. You need to use that to put on at least a display of strength, if not actually being aggressive yourself. Also, every base should be armed, so taking a world is as expensive as you can make it, you have cheaper bases, and probably ISB, so arming them is cheap, and early on, pretty effective.
...




- LEit

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Re: AR vulnerability Mon, 21 June 2004 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icebird is currently offline icebird

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

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My understanding of the AR weakness was the kill star base order- A suicide fleet can take out any planet Sad (at later tech levels), so I was under the impression that being invaded at any time was bad, not just early.


-Peter, Lord of the Big Furry Things

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Re: AR vulnerability Mon, 21 June 2004 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

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True, early however, most races are very hard to kill because early bombs kill a world slower then it grows. And bombers are expensive.

Later on that evens out somewhat, as bombs get better and cheaper compared to the main fleet cost.

Also, early on, AR tend to be have very limited minerals, which limits their ability to build a fleet.



- LEit

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Re: AR vulnerability Mon, 21 June 2004 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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LEit wrote on Mon, 21 June 2004 12:10


Also, early on, AR tend to be have very limited minerals, which limits their ability to build a fleet.


Further, AR's are my preferred "expansion areas" because they can't build a war fleet AND huge mining fleets in the midgame. Therefore, whatever planets they have will usually have the mineral conc intact. This is a boon, as I usually will take a 11-13 eff on my HG's.

I do my best to totally eliminate all AR's, as if the game drags on, the AR always has the advantage. Even if I think I could get a solid alliance, I'd rather kill them. I prefer not to chance it. I'll even go through wormholes to attack and weaken them, if not kill them, just so others will finish them off.

If you don't like that attitude...don't play an AR... Wink

-Matt



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Re: AR vulnerability Mon, 21 June 2004 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ForceUser is currently offline ForceUser

 
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Well Well Well... not everyone shares THAT view. Since I Love to play AR, I have encountered a situation where the other guy though of me as a pushover. I tried to negotiate, he though : AR, Easy Kill. Luckely for me I'm a superb Diplomat and thus convince 2 Nearby races that my enemy was thier enemy, And thus we mangled him Wink

So be carefull just Whom you attack thinking; AR Must be destroyed. Because you will be destroyed if The AR is a good diplomat.

ForceUser, Leader of the Ethereals, Keeper of the Fountain Very Happy



"There are two types of people in the world. AR players and non-AR players" Nick Fraser

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Re: AR vulnerability Mon, 21 June 2004 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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ForceUser wrote on Mon, 21 June 2004 14:57


So be carefull just Whom you attack thinking; AR Must be destroyed. Because you will be destroyed if The AR is a good diplomat.



The issue, though, is that unless you get others to defend you (right now!), you will die anyway. I have no issue blowing through an AR's territory while being attacked. The times this has happened to me, I have been able to grow faster than the others could kill me. Then, I am in a much better position to deal with the AR allies.

I usually don't attack an AR until I can roll them up quick (10-15 years, multiple attacks). By the time you negotiate for help, you are already dead. That's my experience up till now, and I've done it more than 5 times.

I'm sure I'll get bitten on it sooner or later, but it hasn't happened yet.

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 02:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ForceUser is currently offline ForceUser

 
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But my friend, I HAVE been attacked "Blitszcrig" style but He didn't come further than my second world. I had alot of Ships in reserve and I countered his ship design on my Stations. He used the typical Blackjack Cruisers Kill Starbases order. He took out 2 worlds and lost most of his fleet at the 3rd. After that he had to rebuild and he sent in hordes of frigate. Took that out easily to until he sent 200+ of the stuff. By that time. both my friends started attacking him and he lost 125 Frigates in one of my minefields.

He didn't attack me after that.

This is my Experiance playing as an AR. Agreed, I'm just a noob (Completed my first 2 games a week ago) and the other guy was probebly also a noob. But still, a destroy all AR Immediately outlook on a game *might* get you more unfriedlys than anything else. Besides, not every AR Will backstab you if you ally with them. I for one will rather ally with an AR than destroy it.



"There are two types of people in the world. AR players and non-AR players" Nick Fraser

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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 06:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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LEit wrote on Mon, 21 June 2004 16:29

Quoted from the Trans private forum, and moved here.

Hyena wrote on Fri, 18 June 2004 23:48

So what you're saying is that because I chose to play AR, I deserve to be killed?



Interesting that the other AR in the game was a lot quicker out of the blocks and a lot more aggressive.

Probably best to say no more at this point ...


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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 09:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

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I think the discussion here does not prove AR-s vulnerability but does just show how to NOT play AR.

Any player who is not AR-s ally and has no AR ally of his own should know that any alive AR is the doomsday clock ticking for them. So AR must know his place (know that they know) ... "i am doomsday clock for them and victory clock for them."

Who will admit alliance with 10 planet AR anyway? Such "good excuse to gang against us" flag. Confused Thinking that having only 10 colonies should save someones sorry poop in strategy game with serious players present sounds a bit silly. Very Happy Yes, there are some race designs that can get somewhere with only 10 colonies but not AR. Confused AR gets 12K by 2460 with 10 colonies. Laughing
Whisper There exist games for *new players*. Yes

If you take AR into game with some OK players present, then play like man. Have the goals least 40 colonies and ultra tech at 2430 and 10,000 mines as miners + jugger deathstar tech by 2450. Bit behind the lead pack with resources and at top with tech.
Who say it must build more miners? Deathstars 300/500 + 100 x blasterBB-s + 2000 x chaff first. I do claim not that such results are possible without close allies. OTOH such AR is worthy victory clock for his allies and no need to blush being its ally.

If one can not play AR like it should be played then why not take JOAT HP with 15/3/18 mines? It has good minerals and does not need to build the miners and can get 35k econ from 10-15 colonies and eventually 100 Arma BB-s. No, it will not win the game too. Who has won a non-tiny game with 10 colonies anyway? Rolling Eyes It may survive to the midgame because theres no "kick me first" message visible on its back. Cool
...

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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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ForceUser wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 01:22

But my friend, I HAVE been attacked "Blitszcrig" style but He didn't come further than my second world.


Well, sure sounded like he was clueless. You don't follow cruisers with frigates. That's idiotic. Anyone who knows anything about an AR is going to realize that they will probably have a weap advantage. The best thing to do is wipe out a couple key worlds with the cruisers and follow up with BB's.

Once you breakthrough the limit of what the AR can build (mineral limits), plus SB, you win. Typically, the AR is going to have enough minerals to build really nasty SB's on most planets. So, you need to use a ship hull that can take some punishment. Frigates are basically chaff to a missile armed SB...

Quote:


...But still, a destroy all AR Immediately outlook on a game *might* get you more unfriedlys than anything else. Besides, not every AR Will backstab you if you ally with them. I for one will rather ally with an AR than destroy it.


Ah, well, I'd rather go down in flames doing things my own way, than playing it safe. I like diplomacy just fine, but in the end it *is* a war game. Smile

-Matt



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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ForceUser is currently offline ForceUser

 
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All I'd like to say is that it will definately be an interesting game if we two meet Wink

ForceUser



"There are two types of people in the world. AR players and non-AR players" Nick Fraser

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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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mlaub wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 07:04

I like diplomacy just fine, but in the end it *is* a war game. Smile


Momentarily off-topic, Stars! is not so much a war game as a strategy game. As such successful war making is only one of the components to winning, and, surprisingly, successful war making is not necessarily the primary means of winning. Neglecting diplomacy can be as damaging as neglecting population management.


[Updated on: Tue, 22 June 2004 15:21]

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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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ForceUser wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 12:06

All I'd like to say is that it will definately be an interesting game if we two meet Wink
ForceUser


We may have already. I have played 3 different people from SA, you may be one of them.

As far as getting into the same game, I won't start one till summer ends. By that time, I may skip stars entirely and try DominationsII. The last 3 Stars games I have played in have been very disappointing. Between the cheaters, droppers, and clueless newbies trying to play 6 levels above their ability, I haven't had to much of a challege.

If you want, we could play a duel. This is something I have only done a couple of times, and I don't consider myself a good dueler... Turns could be sporadic, though.

Let me know
-Matt



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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow Whist is currently offline Shadow Whist

 
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Well put vonKreedon.
And I must say, playing AR means using a little more of the Diplomacy side of the strategy then the war side... (at least until you are ready...) Smile

________________________________________________
Stop the craziness... AR are our friENDS!

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Re: AR vulnerability Tue, 22 June 2004 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ForceUser is currently offline ForceUser

 
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Problem with deuling is that AR isn't exactly... suited for it Wink It is DEFINATELY a Team/Diplomacy Race!

As for having played agains me... I'm not shure. I'm one of the newbies thats trying to argue with professionals Rolling Eyes I've only completed 2 games (Popgun Armies, Pebble in the Sky, Both with AR) and in both cases I survived thru Diplomacy, Allies and some Limited early war.

Mabey when I'm a bit more experienced and you get bitten by the Stars! bug again. I'm shure It'll be interesting Twisted Evil

ForceUser
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"There are two types of people in the world. AR players and non-AR players" Nick Fraser

Working on some new stuff: http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/stars-nova/index.php?t itle=Graphics
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Re: AR vulnerability Fri, 25 June 2004 07:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Shadow Whist wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 20:26

Well put vonKreedon.
And I must say, playing AR means using a little more of the Diplomacy side of the strategy then the war side... (at least until you are ready...) Smile


Heh guys, may i give a little hint as long term AR player? If your nice next-door neighbour is not some wuss but real player with whatever PRT (Matt or Forceuser) then you better take that war side of our beloved strategy game LOT MORE SERIOUSLY. With AR or with something else. Successful war does not always win the game, but unsuccessful always loses it. Wink

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Re: AR vulnerability Fri, 25 June 2004 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Kotk wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 04:17

Successful war does not always win the game, but unsuccessful always loses it. Wink


This is certainly true, but just highlights the need for successful diplomacy. Without successful diplomacy you don't get to choose when you go to war or who you war against or who your allies are, and such choices can be vital to successful warmaking.

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Re: AR vulnerability Fri, 25 June 2004 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 16:59

Without successful diplomacy you don't get to choose when you go to war or who you war against or who your allies are, and such choices can be vital to successful warmaking.


With advanced opponents the freedom to choose these things are allways limited. With intermediates less so (but that is very colorful pack). Most good players know their own strengths and weaknesses, can estimate others strenghts and weaknesses by turn 20-25 (depending on universe size) and have good strategic picture what is going on next 40 years. So diplomatically it is quite hard to turn the flow completely, but you can nudge it a bit to more profitable direction and then swim along the flow.

Matt for example put it quite clear few messages ago... if you start as AR next to Matt you wont choose when you start the war with him. You start it when he thinks he needs to expand and you are ripe to drop.
Wink

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Re: AR vulnerability Fri, 25 June 2004 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
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Quote:


Yes, there are some race designs that can get somewhere with only 10 colonies but not AR. AR gets 12K by 2460 with 10 colonies.


To be fair, should be mentioned that quoted AR was attacked before 2440 rather than 2460. Game is medium, normal but everyone has free Orbital Adjuster ships (that might also count as remote miner equiv of 500 mines). The OA ships in theory should give a boost to AR as early mineral crunch isn't as bad and terraforming turns immediately into extra resources... but the OA ships also give a boost to everyone else including the AR's neighbours.

For Matt looking for a challenge, my first impressions looking at Dominions aren't great. The documention seemed poor, I don't like a game where it is hard to figure out the 'guts' of how things work except vaguely through trial and error. Perhaps a better challenge would be playing some crazy combo like a PP PRT race who completely avoids diplomacy.

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Re: AR vulnerability Fri, 25 June 2004 13:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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You completely missed my point. "12k econ by 2460" is most vulgar sentence i would use when describing a races power. Doesnot matter what its PRT is and what year i attack it... it belongs not to the game i am playing in and it deserves no diplomacy.

EDIT: It was probably intentional since you removed the smilies.


[Updated on: Fri, 25 June 2004 14:00]

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Re: AR vulnerability Fri, 25 June 2004 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
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If he was not attacked 2435ish he should have had more than 10 planets by 2450-2460.

He was weak with minimal defences apparently giving consessions to appease his neighbours. In turn they saw weaknesses and decided to grab all territory. I'm on the other end of the map so I had only a limited view.

In the end 3 different neighbours shared out his territory.

Just throwing in context of situation for others rather than arguing any case.

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Re: AR vulnerability Mon, 28 June 2004 05:26 Go to previous message
Kotk

 
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I understand and i think they did it right. Most bad start i had during few last years:

Starting in corner between JoaT HG and SS -f in medium normal 10 players game without Acc BBs. Such game size is too small for AR-s so i view it more like experimental. SS was agreeable but JOAT was acting quite reserved in diplo. By 2430 i had 15 colonies (without Acc-bbs the start is delayed by 7 years roughly) and i had also managed to change the diplomatic situation in the way that my both neighbours were trading planets and tech with me and in war with nearby HE. The latter was not hard because HE had territory of 2 players thanks to early dropout and acted quite agressive. I admit i got lucky.

However if i had played like isolationalist and had not found other job to that JOAT i had been stomped. That SS would be easily convinced that AR in corner is weak enough not too hard to get rid of and no one would object.

It actually makes little difference that i had half more planets about 7 years earlier than the AR we have under current discussion (but i was strong enough to participate in the war against HE and get about 15 planets from his territory). Playable AR-s start from 40 colonies about 2430 like i said somewhat earlier. Nod

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