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Ok KotK, what you are telling me is that I am overly fearful for my colonies. The couple of the three times that I have played against AR they simply went poof before we entered the mid-game because they were unable to defend their colonies against Yak DDs and Phaser FFs. So I'm figuring, apparently incorrectly, that I would have to put up hardened SDs ASAP to avoid playing a very short game.

But I still wonder about the scenario in which I find myself next to an agressive -f race.

Thank you for your patience and for the tips.

[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:06]

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[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:28]

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Hi!

Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:48

Here i do it bit differently ... i build these maxi miners *only* at homeworld and only if i have high (above 60) iron worlds...

I build them on first (rich or normal) breeders, after upgrading Dock to the Station and they're waiting for pop to grow to the next hold level, because I'm too lazy to do pop AND minerals balancing, but the minimal needed for building orbitals and movers. Not such a MM freak anymore?
BR, Iztok

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iztok wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:48

Not such a MM freak anymore?

Never been one. I have studied almost all aspects of the game very closely but i have always thought how to MM enough and NEVER MORE.

Why i do it differently from what you suggested is that i very rarely build stations with AR. I built stations in masses with that ISB-less 3-immune (that is not as bad as people might think), but i have not played it ... 10 years already. I usually get 1 immune with growth 14-15 or maybe 16 with LSP. That gives 1 in 4 or maybe even 1 in 3 hab with careful design.

Combined -f hab and low growth... it makes LOT of habitable or soon to be habitable planets. I have no time to wait until someone takes these planets and so i breed from the docks i have.

Now... about turn 30 i have mostly finished my colonization phase and the pop transport routes from HW grow futile (5+steps) i start thinking about raising the pop density around center and on breeders.

Clicking F5 i usually see con 12 by then. So i build ultras, skipping the stations. They have more or less equal cost. Now when my ultra is ready i have the question: who builds construction 7 miners at construction 12?

Sure i would build stations if my HW is extreme poor or i have some 100+ germ conc breeders or breeder is hit by comet... but these are special cases. Station+miners must pay their cost back at least 3-4 times until 2430, and that means close to 90 conc worlds. Spreading, terraforming and tech are otherwise better investments.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:32]

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Kotk wrote on Wed, 19 May 2004 16:05

Why i do it differently from what you suggested is that i very rarely build stations with AR. I built stations in masses with that ISB-less 3-immune (that is not as bad as people might think), but i have not played it ... 10 years already. I usually get 1 immune with growth 14-15 or maybe 16 with LSP. That gives 1 in 4 or maybe even 1 in 3 hab with careful design. Sure i would build stations if my HW is extreme poor or i have some 100+ germ conc breeders or breeder is hit by comet... but these are special cases. Station+miners must pay their cost back at least 3-4 times until 2430, and that means close to 90 conc worlds. Spreading, terraforming and tech are otherwise better investments.

Whether to build stations or not as AR, depends in my testbeds mainly(apart from having ISB or not) on germ conc,especially on HW, number of good planets(=hab) and pop growth. With high growth docks start sooner to be to small and more minerals are mined by pop per planet and habs tend to be smaller, so if there's enough germ building stations pays. With low growth, habs are wider, so more planets to stuff pop to, docks are big enough longer and less germ is avaible per planet, so skipping stations costs less pop and saves more germ and that way is more likely to pay than with high growth rates.
The point is, why investing 250-300kT germ and 300-500 resources per planet in 2415-2420, when you want to start ultra building in 2428-32. By building stations you might face having not enough germ to build ultras, which is far worse than not building stations(of course can be avoided by building more miners, but that cost more resources, so ultras are researched and build later).

For example the famous Arvids(first posted 25000 resource AR) are 1 in 21 with 19% growth, i do not think it would be wise to skip stations with them.

And with 14-16% growth Kotk has certainly very often a start, where building stations does not pay.

Carn

[Updated on: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:33]

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Carn wrote on Wed, 19 May 2004 16:28

For example the famous Arvids(first posted 25000 resource AR) are 1 in 21 with 19% growth, i do not think it would be wise to skip stations with them.

Oh any of my AR-s get usually about 25k in tiny packed while the Arvids get about 12k-15k there. Arvids got their 25k result playing in small packed alone. I do not think that AR is good idea like QS with 19% growth and worse than 1 in 10 hab. You run too quick into neighbours and you cant pop drop. Arvids need CA teamie to take them into real game.

I have seen a testbed where one guy got nearly 100k with OBRM AR played in medium packed + beginners max minerals. That does not make OBRM AR a monster.

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Hi!

Kotk wrote on Wed, 19 May 2004 16:05

iztok wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:48 Not such a MM freak anymore? Never been one. I have studied almost all aspects of the game very closely but i have always thought how to MM enough and NEVER MORE.

Sorry, it has not been mentioned YOU are MM freak, but me being lazy, so not being one.

Quote:

...i very rarely build stations with AR... ... snip explanation...

Point taken. To breed like an HE was not on my mind, ESP when higher number of AR pop doesn't make so much more resources.
BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:43]

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Hi!

Kotk wrote on Wed, 19 May 2004 16:05

I built stations in masses with that ISB-less 3-immune (that is not as bad as people might think), but i have not played it ... 10 years already.

No wonder. Despite ARs benefit the most from 3-immunity, they have to pay through the nose for it. I did a testbed once with 7% 3-immune AR. 've spread pop equally, transported 2200 or 4400 pop at once etc. 've manged to get 26k in 2500 .
BR, Iztok

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Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 20 May 2004 05:18

others: You all seem to be assuming ISB LRT has been selected... Personally, my most successful AR race so far did not take ISB.

No ISB? Your experience with AR must be is a bit limited then. Tell us what resources you got and in where?

I can play without IFE, without ARM and even maybe with CE (each of these are more expensive than ISB). Its truely hard without ISB.

First ... as ISB-less it is hard to scout and spread quick enough only with stuff and fuel that is produced at HW. One cannot use large freighters to carry pop without ISB because LF just fills that tiny fort thing too much. Also it is hard to build stations just with fort pop. Finally ... it is difficult to get needed resources for deathstar tech from station empire. All that pain cannot be comparable with anything you can buy for these stinky 67 rw points.

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iztok wrote on Thu, 20 May 2004 10:50

I did a testbed once with 7% 3-immune AR. 've spread pop equally, transported 2200 or 4400 pop at once etc. 've manged to get 26k in 2500 .

Try 6%. I remember playing in game with 6% 3-immune IFE ARM RS and pop eff 8. It did significally better in real game than testbed you described. Possibly it was because Stars versions back then gave more initial pop with acc BBS.

Pop management trick with 6% AR: Colonize turn 0 with 1600 pop, take energy 5 and then colonize as lot you can but keep eye that all your colonies have equal pop. Stations turn into breeders around 2490.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:28]

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[Updated on: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:55]

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