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Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 07:52 Go to next message
slms is currently offline slms

 
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Hi People,

I'm quite frustrated with AR (but I still like them Smile)...

I can't figure out how to get those little guys archive 25k by 2450 in a tiny/normal AccBBS testbed... I tried everything, non-immunities(1/4 planets), 1-immunity(1/[4,6,10]), 2-immunities(1/4), tri-immunities, TT/non-immunities, TT/1-immunity, you name it.

I had used other people posted races and try to design my own, never passed from 16k and only building empty hull (not practical in real games)...

I readied all the post I could found and, as people had post years before that it is possible, the problem must the player, not the race Smile

Please, tell me, how you start colonize other worlds in the first 25 years (2400-2425)?

- Sequential or Parallel?
- From the best hab to the lowest greens?
- Using yellows one? maybe red?
- When to switch from the 25% pop to 50% pop?
- What is your research breakpoint in this start time-line?

Thank you,

-- Sergio Silva


[Updated on: Thu, 13 May 2004 07:53]

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Re: Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
slms wrote on Thu, 13 May 2004 13:52

I can't figure out how to get those little guys archive 25k by 2450 in a tiny/normal AccBBS testbed...

You can't. There's not enough stars to do that with average planet draw. Try tiny packed and 18%, 1-immune other two narrow and shifted 1 in 8, IFE, ISB, NAS, RS AR and you shuld be there and over.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ForceUser is currently offline ForceUser

 
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Actuelly the right answer is You don't have to. 70% to 90% of that 25k resourses of a "Standard" race, goes stright back into factories = only 10% - 30% left for Ships and research.

Thats about only 2k - 7k resourses. With an AR, 100% goes into research and ships. Thats 16k. AR has better tech (Remember to research energy almost exclusively and trade for better weap and con with it. You can also build a lot more ships (Miners, Minelayers) so your neighbour gets scared if you patrol your borders with 20 cruisers and he doesn't even have cruisers yet.

I've got a ton of AR faqs on my site www.groep7.co.za/stars/ and thay'll help out immensely.

ForceUser



"There are two types of people in the world. AR players and non-AR players" Nick Fraser

Working on some new stuff: http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/stars-nova/index.php?t itle=Graphics
And the Mentor Database www.groep7.co.za/Mentor/ ZOMGWTFBBQ!! it still works lol!
Check out my old site with old pics at www.groep7.co.za/Stars/

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Re: Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 19:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Regarding the research break points:
Energy is a no brainer, up to around level 10, then construction starts to get to be more effective at increasing resources.
Construction influences resources (level 12 for ultrastation IF you chose ISB, then level 17 for deathstars)
You also want construction and elect tech for mining, this is dependent somewhat on your circumstances (if you don't need to build warships, you can *almost* avoid building miners altogether.)
Large freighter tech helps *a lot*. It's especially crucial for AR that the population is moved at maximium speed.

Regarding pop-hold points:
You need to maximise your population. 25% - 33% holds on all high green worlds are important. Try to avoid wasting resources terraforming red and yellow worlds until you really have to. If you can spare the resources/minerals/pop it is worth throwing tiny colonies on the red and yellow planets just for the resources they provide (remember your resources per world are dependent on the sqrt of the population, so tiny populations on reds can often actually provide more resources than they would as additional population on already populated green.)

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Re: Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Quote:

Sequential or Parallel?


Parallel. Definately.

If you have 2 worlds with similar hab, then split your population evenly between them to maximise resources gained.

Obviously if you find a 100% world, then you still want to maximise growth by bringing it up to 25% ASAP, but if you also have a 95% world available, then I'd split my population between them.

If you find any worlds over 50%, then colonise them immediately.

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Re: Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 22:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 01:39



Obviously if you find a 100% world, then you still want to maximise growth by bringing it up to 25% ASAP, but if you also have a 95% world available, then I'd split my population between them.




Isn't growth maximised by keeping 100% worlds at 349900 colonists as long as their are now other 75+% worlds avaible?

Carn

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Re: Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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No, I'm afraid it isn't. All you have done there is to maximise the actual growth at that particular planet.

After the population of the planet hits 25%, then each additional colonist grows at a reduced rate. You start to hit negative growth with each colonist once you hit 33%.

The key there is that until you hit 33% each additional colonsit does produce *some* growth. However the effective growth of those last few % is dramatically below your race's growth rate. If you instead sent those additional colonists to another lower hab world then they would still grow faster.

Example: growth of 33% pop on a single 100% world will be lower than the combined growth of 32% pop on a single 100% world and 2% pop on a 50% world.

I got into quite an invloved discussion about growth maximisation recently in the Academy, I'll go find you a link so you can take a look.

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Re: Start colonization help Thu, 13 May 2004 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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link to "colonising planets" thread in the Academy.

http://library.southern.edu/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 1539&start=25&rid=326&S=e22982925bfff1e302abcb5b 4e015109

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Re: Start colonization help Fri, 14 May 2004 02:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 01:32

Energy is a no brainer, up to around level 10, then construction starts to get to be more effective at increasing resources...
Large freighter tech helps *a lot*.

I'd disagree with energy up to 10. You'd face BIG mineral crunch if not researching large freighters and decent remote miners ASAP. So my path is:
- en-5 (resources),
- con-3 and prop-2 (medium freighter with FM as first pop mover, but don't build much of them),
- en-6 and/or con 8 for LF and SFX,
- elec-4 (maxi-miner-robot (aim at 2-4 robots per average planet, 6-8 for rich),
- then some en (6,7,8 ) and
- straight up to con 12 (UltraStation) around turn 30. Somewhere in between those stages weap-1 and 5 and bio-1 and 2 for terra-3/7.
- Prop-9 for far-going W9 LFs (you'll need those with double the pop growth from Ultras).
- After that en-10 and bio-3 for resources, trade and terra-11 and
- Bio-4 (minelayers) and weap-12 for defense and terra,
- con-13 for BBs and 300/500 gates,
- elec-6 for super-robo-miner (to make them gateable use a single robot in a mini-miner hull, FM of QJ-5 engine).

After I'm through this list (usually turn 40-45) and there's peace in my neighbourhood I'd go for en-15 (resources, terra and trade) and con-17 (DeathStar), while trading for other tech. This way I can usually avoid big iron crunch, and have decent supply of minerals to run colony drive, and even defend myself against a non-determined ("let's just try") attacker.
Well, a bit more than just my 2 cents. Wink
BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:49]

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Re: Start colonization help Fri, 14 May 2004 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 05:21

No, I'm afraid it isn't. All you have done there is to maximise the actual growth at that particular planet.

After the population of the planet hits 25%, then each additional colonist grows at a reduced rate. You start to hit negative growth with each colonist once you hit 33%.

The key there is that until you hit 33% each additional colonsit does produce *some* growth. However the effective growth of those last few % is dramatically below your race's growth rate. If you instead sent those additional colonists to another lower hab world then they would still grow faster.

Example: growth of 33% pop on a single 100% world will be lower than the combined growth of 32% pop on a single 100% world and 2% pop on a 50% world.

I got into quite an invloved discussion about growth maximisation recently in the Academy, I'll go find you a link so you can take a look.



You are correct about optimising growth, thanks, i learned something.

But with AR i think its still different, than with other races, because putting lot of resources into con(12) and en(10) research is essential(other races can live with privateers+fm and smallest gate and no other tech until wars start) and optimizing growth rates the way you calculated needs lots of freighters, maybe 2-3 per planet above the initial 2200 pop AR colonizes with.

I think it might be better to research directly LFs and remove pop from breeder worlds only every other turn(and that way have nearly filled LFs). That of course reduces both pop growth and resources produced, but saves lots of min and the amout put into research gets greater, alowing ultras around 2425(if brave enough to skip we until then) or even a bit earlier.

Further about en, you should consider closely whether researching en or terraforming increases your resources better(of course terra also increases growth). E.g.(sorry, no exact numbers) going from en9 to 10 costs around 2000 resources and increases production for all planets by roughly 5%. If
...



[Updated on: Fri, 14 May 2004 04:11]

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Re: Start colonization help Mon, 17 May 2004 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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hmmm. Some pretty interesting points are getting raised here.

I'll just clarify a things I've been thinking:

Terraforming: Nice point about drawing the cost comparison between terraforming and research. However please don't forget that when you terraform you are increasing your PGR as well as produced resources, so I would continue to terraform 60%+ planets. (Related to this: a nice 'trick' with terraforming is to have at least one narrow hab (while keeping planet count equal) as this exagerates the impact of early terraforming.)

Tech: OK, en10 is a little high, point taken. The main point I was trying to get across was for AR con research is actually more important to resources than en (after you hit around 10-14en)

Population balancing: You don't need any more freighters to send your population to 2 worlds than it does to send them to 1. I'm not suggesting sending near empty freighters all over the place, I'm just recommending you choose a healthy variety of destinations Smile

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Re: Start colonization help Mon, 17 May 2004 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 09:12


Terraforming: Nice point about drawing the cost comparison between terraforming and research. However please don't forget that when you terraform you are increasing your PGR as well as produced resources, so I would continue to terraform 60%+ planets. (Related to this: a nice 'trick' with terraforming is to have at least one narrow hab (while keeping planet count equal) as this exagerates the impact of early terraforming.)


I suggested not to terraform 60%+ worlds very early and meant with very early before turn 20. The later the game, the higher your en level and the better effiency of terraforming(depending on TT and immunities and hab width and actual planet values, e.g. the well known -1%(85%) planet shouls be terraformed asap), the earlier you should terraform all planets. But the main example i had in mind are the first colonized worlds, you can get before you have en6+, for those worlds its normally better to do research, than terraforming. Certainly above en10 terraforming is always better.

Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 09:12




Population balancing: You don't need any more freighters to send your population to 2 worlds than it does to send them to 1. I'm not suggesting sending near empty freighters all over the place, I'm just recommending you choose a healthy variety of destinations Smile


If you use MFs or Privs yes, but not if you use LFs. LF might take population growth of 2-3 years. Keeping pop at optimal values for growth requires picking up colonist every year, that does not change number of neccesary MFs, but rougly double number of LFs, which would make using LFs useless, until Ultras. So by taking colonist up only every 2 or 3 turns, you need 1 LF instead of the 4-6 MFs, you would use when you want to get optimal growth. That saves resources+ mins and costs growth + resource production. Depends on race design and highly on HW mins which is more optimal, if HW mins are not enough to produce MFs + colony ships(happens often to me, even with
...

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Re: Start colonization help Mon, 17 May 2004 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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I still disagree somewhat on the terraforming - I'd rather let my resources fall slightly behind in the very early game in order to increase my early population growth (which will in turn generate greater resources in the medium and long term.)

It's all a big balancing act, to ensure you have crucial technologies at the correct times (MF, LF, Ultrastation/DS, Mining hulls/bots, engines, weapons, etc...) to maximise your growth. Often it is better to let your resource count take a short term hit in order to ensure you meet a vital requirement (easy example is letting resources take a loss to get weapons tech...)

When I use LFs, I usually send them out only partially full (so they can travel at max warp.) If minerals are particularly tight, then yes, I would also only send population on alternate years. I'm not too concerned with trying to keep pop on individual worlds at the exact optimum level, but more concerned with making sure the transiting population is directed to the optimum locations.

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 06:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 00:15

I still disagree somewhat on the terraforming - I'd rather let my resources fall slightly behind in the very early game in order to increase my early population growth (which will in turn generate greater resources in the medium and long term.)


But higher resources early means ultras faster and that also could get extra growth. I'm certain that for non-immune AR(i know 1-immune is stronger) its possible to have a start, where terraforming good planets early does not give as much pop in long run as researching ultras quicker. For "standard" 1-immune with TT its far less likely, but still might happen.
Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 00:15



If minerals are particularly tight, then yes, I would also only send population on alternate years.


Never happend to me that mins were not particular tight, before con7 miners and i prefer to skip those and start with con12 miners, saves lots of resources.

Carn

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Carn wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 03:21


Never happend to me that mins were not particular tight, before con7 miners and i prefer to skip those and start with con12 miners, saves lots of resources.


I've yet to play AR against humans, but I've been testbedding recently. In my testbeds I always run into a mineral shortage early, particularly Ir as I build PVTs. How do you manage to skip straight to the Con12/Elec6 RSM? I have been forced in all my testbeds to build several, ~10-12, Con4/Elec2 RM miners. What might I be doing wrong?

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 16:23

I've yet to play AR against humans, but I've been testbedding recently. In my testbeds I always run into a mineral shortage early, particularly Ir as I build PVTs. How do you manage to skip straight to the Con12/Elec6 RSM? I have been forced in all my testbeds to build several, ~10-12, Con4/Elec2 RM miners. What might I be doing wrong?


Played 3 games as an AR against humans, mineral shortage in every game, not able to build enough transports to keep HW at holding level and that was with 15% growth ... always needed to build extra miners.
(Don't remember the iron concentrations of the HW, or of the closest planets, but you should never count on being lucky anyway.)

mch

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 16:23


I've yet to play AR against humans, but I've been testbedding recently. In my testbeds I always run into a mineral shortage early, particularly Ir as I build PVTs. How do you manage to skip straight to the Con12/Elec6 RSM? I have been forced in all my testbeds to build several, ~10-12, Con4/Elec2 RM miners. What might I be doing wrong?



Read other posts before asking? Like Iztok said above:

- en-5 (resources),
- con-3 and prop-2 (medium freighter with FM as first pop mover, but don't build much of them),
- en-6 and con 8 for LF and SFX,

Note, NO PRIVATEERS and no much med freighters!!! Now its turn 11-12 and you already build large freighters and build them and no other crap. If your homeworld is partially low with ironium then carry that ironium from planets where you transported pop back to homeworld. Must be enough to keep building transports + about 2 pintas per turn.

Iztok continued:

- elec-4 (maxi-miner-robot (aim at 2-4 robots per average planet, 6-8 for rich),

Here i do it bit differently ... i build these maxi miners *only* at homeworld and only if i have high (above 60) iron worlds (no matter if colonized) around it (within 72ly) so these miners pay plentily back with next 15 years, after what i have usually reached constuction 12 (and start building true miners). If there is still mineral problem i build large freighters and pintas at other colonies.

Rest of the Iztok's early path was quite similar to mine.

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 16:23

Carn wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 03:21


Never happend to me that mins were not particular tight, before con7 miners and i prefer to skip those and start with con12 miners, saves lots of resources.


I've yet to play AR against humans, but I've been testbedding recently. In my testbeds I always run into a mineral shortage early, particularly Ir as I build PVTs. How do you manage to skip straight to the Con12/Elec6 RSM? I have been forced in all my testbeds to build several, ~10-12, Con4/Elec2 RM miners. What might I be doing wrong?


I simply do that by ignoring HW hitting 25%(or 33%) and build no MFs or Privs at all and no terraform. I go directly to con8 and then only take colonist every other turn. When i get con8 i have to build 2-3 LFs to get pop back to 25-30% and afterwards i need at most a new one every 2 years. Though i play 15-16% growth and 1/1000 efficiency, with 19% and 1/2500 efficiency i would do different, it would take forever to get con8. That way i'm sacrificing growth for more con tech and save minerals. That way i hope to get to con12 fast enough. But take care i only ran testbeds so far(got con 8 in 2407-10, got con12 in 2424-25 and con12 miners build in 2428 with no we research till then), i'm in first game in twenties now and already behind plan, i had to do some we research, because of uncertain neighbour and terraform requirements. Don't know if this works.
But i think you should nearly always try to skip con4 miners, they are rather expensive and with con cheap(nearly must have for AR) con 7 miners are not far away.

Carn

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Carn wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 08:56

I simply do that by ignoring HW hitting 25%(or 33%) and build no MFs or Privs at all and no terraform.


Thank you, that is the part I was missing. I've been trying to agressively colonize and push out population. I can't do that with MFs because of fuel issues, so I need the PVT, but that gives me the Ir shortage.

How do you avoid having most of the nice planets taken by the time you get around to colonizing? I don't see just colonizing with Starter Colonies because they are meat for anybody with an Armed Probe.

Thanks for the help.

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 12:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Carn wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:56

I simply do that by ignoring HW hitting 25%(or 33%) and build no MFs or Privs at all and no terraform. I go directly to con8 and then only take colonist every other turn.

Too harsh tactic there to suggest as general. Maybe viable only with extreme case of below 30 iron conc + below 300 initial iron on HW floor + no potato bugs to scrap since you avoided ARM.

Usually the iron conc is around 60 and floor iron is over 400. Then its simple to build about 6 medium freighters that cost 200 iron and 100 germ and manage the pop with them until LF-s.

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 18:33

How do you avoid having most of the nice planets taken by the time you get around to colonizing? I don't see just colonizing with Starter Colonies because they are meat for anybody with an Armed Probe.


Colonizing is very important. I usually colonise anything green as soon i see it.
Armed probe? Laughing It takes 2 blue lasers + 1 regenning cow shield on starter colony to kill armed probe.


[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:55]

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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to vankreedon: i still build pintas to colonize. and i'm still trying if my idea realy works.

to Kotk: i started trying this after being angry about my 4th testbed with iron below 40. and germ of 30 also causes problems, pintas cost lot of germ, and you cannot be certain to raise germ enough via race wizards points left.

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 09:54

Armed probe? Laughing It takes 2 blue lasers + 1 regenning cow shield on starter colony to kill armed probe.


Yeah, but the actual Starter Colony is inarguably meat. And any OF at beginning game tech levels is meat to any set of actual warships and I can't build an SD with only 2,200+ people on the ground. So again, how does one protect new colonies if not pushing population to them and building armed SDs?

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Sure, with bad start i would do the same... but usually things are a bit better. I once started about 100 testbeds and it revealed that average conc of all minerals was above 60. Sure if you scum a bit you get everything at 30 too. Wink

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Re: Start colonization help Tue, 18 May 2004 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Kotk

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 19:00


Yeah, but the actual Starter Colony is inarguably meat.


Upgrade from starter colony to starter colony with 2 blue lasers and one cow shield at technology 5/0/2/0/0/0 costs 1 ironium, 5 boraniums, 1 germanium and 6 resources. Red planet with only 1800 pop on ground generates 8 resources per turn at same tech. So armed probes arent threat to anyone armed only with bare hands + brain!!!
Quote:

And any OF at beginning game tech levels is meat to any set of actual warships and I can't build an SD with only 2,200+ people on the ground. So again, how does one protect new colonies if not pushing population to them and building armed SDs?

that 22 pop generates about 22 resources. That is enough to put up 7 cow shields + 4 blue lasers with one turn. It makes range 2 beamer with 40 dp weapon power, 100 armor and 392 shields regenning 39dp per turn. And who said you may not upgrade it further next turn?
But no need ... it alone can kill yakimora DD. Anyone who builds anything even better than few yaki DD-s before turn 30 is quite likely an idiot.


[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:51]

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