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IT alliance benefits Wed, 17 December 2003 13:20 Go to next message
boneandrew is currently offline boneandrew

 
Crewman 1st Class

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The benefits of being able to gate massive fleets around is obvious. Here are some thoughts on some of the things an IT can do:

Gating ships into allies territory for battles. Even though missile ships will take some damage, this will be much less than if a non-IT were gating. Really makes for good defense for the whole alliance.

Transporting allies' minerals. The ally loads minerals onto the IT freighters and the IT gates them around using the allies' gates. A bit of MM and planning required here, but very useful.

Scouting on enemy planets to share via the 100/any gate scanning.

The AMG doesn't appear to be all that useful for replenishing fuel, because super fuel X-ports do the same thing better.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Mon, 29 March 2004 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Having an IT in your alliance is also very dangerous in a true '1 winner only' game - if (read when) they change sides then that gate network they spread through out your empire means you are extinct. Shocked

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Re: IT alliance benefits Tue, 30 March 2004 09:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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But, it's even worse for the IT. As the former ally attacking an IT, they can use the IT gate network to get massive fleets all over the place and drop a big chunk of the ITs empire in one turn.

In my one game as an IT, I had a few allies, but it was a one winner game. I was very nervous...



- LEit

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Re: IT alliance benefits Tue, 30 March 2004 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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LEit wrote on Tue, 30 March 2004 15:10

But, it's even worse for the IT. As the former ally attacking an IT, they can use the IT gate network to get massive fleets all over the place and drop a big chunk of the ITs empire in one turn.

In my one game as an IT, I had a few allies, but it was a one winner game. I was very nervous...


In a one winner game everyone should always be nervous of their allies. In my last game (which was one winner only) I was so nervous that I ended up without any allies, and consequently was the first to die Rolling Eyes

I'd say one thing though; if you are going to backstab your IT ally who has a gate network throughout your empire, you'd better make that first strike count!

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Re: IT alliance benefits Tue, 30 March 2004 18:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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As the IT player, once the conflict has started (or if you are perceptive/paranoid/lucky: the year before,) then you can deny access to your gates using diplomacy settings.

OTOH the non-IT player has to actually attack the component planets of the IT network to remove the gate network threat, so the threat proceeds past the first year of combat.

Essentially this means an non-IT player has to be capable of delivering a Twisted Evil crippling Twisted Evil first strike to avoid retaliation when betraying his IT ally; whereas the IT player is capable of continually delivering forces to his deep stargates for several years with no fear of cross-border retaliation through his stargates. Cool

**repaired broken evil faces**


[Updated on: Tue, 30 March 2004 18:39]

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Re: IT alliance benefits Thu, 14 July 2005 00:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

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As long as we're resurrecting old threads (HP IT thread was resurrected recently) I would like to respond to this statement:

Quote:


The AMG doesn't appear to be all that useful for replenishing fuel, because super fuel X-ports do the same thing better.



I had been under the impression that ships with AMGs are better, because when a fleet with super fuel-xports hits a mine they all die, whereas AMGs can be placed on ships with armor and shields. Of course, AMGs don't heal your fleet though. Maybe throw them on B-17 or B-52 bombers and then you don't need an extra slot for a fuel ship.

Of course, this may just be speculation, as a fleet with a mere 1000 chaff has 50000mg fuel just from them.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Thu, 14 July 2005 06:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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crr65536 wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 06:57

I had been under the impression that ships with AMGs are better, because when a fleet with super fuel-xports hits a mine they all die, whereas AMGs can be placed on ships with armor and shields.

And all your chaff dies as well, most likely making your fleet useless untill replaced.

Quote:

Of course, AMGs don't heal your fleet though. Maybe throw them on B-17 or B-52 bombers and then you don't need an extra slot for a fuel ship.

I think bombers might be better off with OTs to get the hell out off any battle, or possibly jammers to make them less attractive if you bring bomber chaff ... although that might be hard to impossible with all that bor in the bombs ...

Oh, and B-17 can't take a mine hit either ...

Quote:

Of course, this may just be speculation, as a fleet with a mere 1000 chaff has 50000mg fuel just from them.

And those 1000 chaff will use up that supply in 1 turn of warp9, no-IFE (common for IT) making things even worse ... IIRC scout chaff can't even go warp10 when solo, their own fuel supply is too small ...

mch


[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2005 06:23]

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Re: IT alliance benefits Thu, 14 July 2005 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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B-17 can't take a hit? It says in the tech browser it has 175 base armor. A mine's minimum damage is 100.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Thu, 14 July 2005 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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ah yes, but it's 100 per engine... B-17 has 2 so will cop 200 damage.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Thu, 14 July 2005 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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Oops - missed that Embarassed . Thanks!

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sat, 16 July 2005 23:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Best Ally.[ 23 votes ]
1. HE 1 / 4%
2. SS 2 / 9%
3. WM 5 / 22%
4. CA 6 / 26%
5. IS 0 / 0%
6. SD 1 / 4%
7. PP 0 / 0%
8. IT 3 / 13%
9. AR 5 / 22%
10. JOAT 0 / 0%

So what is the ITs best ally?


If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sat, 16 July 2005 23:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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I'd have to say I'm torn:

SS - because the combination makes for virtually invisible fleets that could be anywhere.

AR - because, well, why do you think Wink ?

IT - because then it is more like one big empire than two smaller empires, due to how well two ITs merge together, as freakyboy pointed out in another thread.

Overall I'd have to go with SS because they're flat-out cooler Cool . I know someone voted for SD, but the way I see it although the IT is more or less invulnerable to the mines (because he never has to go through them) he simply doesn't gain as much as he can from the other three I mentioned.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 04:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
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IT+AR is useless. The only good thing about AR is that it can mine its own HW. Well, if you need minerals late in the game, you can always pick up your colonists and mine your HW anyway. At that point a few K in resources is not important.

IT+SS is fun to play, but it has WAY fewer resources than most other combos (except IT+AR) and won't be able to reasonably compete at all.

IT+IT is better than the first two, but it's not the best combo.

By far the best combo is IT+CA - blows away anything else. Tried and tested multiple times.



Mess with the best, die like the rest!

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 06:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Braindead wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 10:15

IT+AR is useless. The only good thing about AR is that it can mine its own HW. Well, if you need minerals late in the game, you can always pick up your colonists and mine your HW anyway. At that point a few K in resources is not important.

But you won't be mining at the set HW concentration of 30 ... only ARs can do that. So late game you'll be mining with a concentration of 1 ... which is pretty useless.

mch

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Braindead wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 10:15

By far the best combo is IT+CA - blows away anything else. Tried and tested multiple times.

Have to agree here, IT+CA is a very strong combo. Just check what is used most often in teamgames with teams of 3 players: IT+CA+something ... Which is utterly boring btw Grin so when hosting I usually ban one of them, ... depending on what I want to play. Smile

mch

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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IT + AR is useless? What about the "mineral fountain"? Especially with IT transporting said minerals so they can get to places that build ships must faster than if the AR was trying to transport them themselves.

You guys are probably right about IT + CA though - CA didn't come to my mind because it's so often banned Evil or Very Mad .

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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crr65536 wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 16:32

IT + AR is useless? What about the "mineral fountain"? Especially with IT transporting said minerals so they can get to places that build ships must faster than if the AR was trying to transport them themselves.

That combo is not useless. However you mention "mineral fountain" as strongest point and that's why I think you're looking for a good ally for an AR instead of the other way around: looking for a good ally for an IT.

Sure, minerals get transported quicker because of the IT instant transport, but the minerals will get everywhere in a few turns through ordinary transport as well. It's only a matter of keeping up the mineral flow towards your queues. It will just cost you more LFs in transit. Benefits here are with IT you spend less fleet #'s in transport (less MM as well) and you'll have it easier to gather all the missiles ships that you are building thanks to the mineral fountain ...

mch

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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What you are saying makes sense, however, does IT have any PRT-defined weaknesses? There aren't really any I can think of. It seems to me that how well an IT and another race would ally would be determined by what the other race can bring to the alliance. We can look at what the other races could give ITs:

HE: not sure - low-growth HEs tend to have more minerals, and some MM-based ships might be useful.
SS: overcloakers, stolen minerals, more tech, RB and Chameleon scanners
WM: a stronger fleet with BCs and DNs instead of CCs and BBs
IS: tacheon detectors, speed traps
CA: (almost) free terraforming
PP: supplement offensives with packets, scanning for ITs who take NAS which are common
SD: exploding mines which harm enemies but not the IT who doesn't need to travel through them + speed traps and heavies which could come in handy.
IT: easier alliance co-operation and co-ordination
AR: mineral fountain
JOAT: scanning for NAS ITs

Am I missing some things? Am I still looking at it wrong? These are not meant to be sarcastic - please correct me.

Anyways, I look at the above list and think that "mineral fountain" is one of the more valuable things on the list.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Accually, you are missing something, but its a negitive not a positive. The IT is not immune to detonation. Detonation harms all ships, including an allys. taking into account that you can gate around them, you have to remember that detonations do damage to orbiting ships and even starbases. If you place your minefields carefully, then yes, you are safe, but I would be wary when allowing a SD to lay mines around your planets. Especially if the game requires one winner...

[Updated on: Sun, 17 July 2005 16:41]




If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wizard is currently offline wizard

 
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dethdukk wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 22:41

Accually, you are missing something, but its a negitive not a positive. The IT is not immune to detonation. Detonation harms all ships, including an allys. taking into account that you can gate around them, you have to remember that detonations do damage to orbiting ships and even starbases. If you place your minefields carefully, then yes, you are safe, but I would be wary when allowing a SD to lay mines around your planets. Especially if the game requires one winner...


There are very few cases where you would want to detonate minefields at allies' bases. As IT, I wouldn't allow a SD ally to detonate minefields at my planets...
BTW, Starbases are not affected by detonations.

Andreas / wizard

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Re: IT alliance benefits Sun, 17 July 2005 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Alright. Still, I wouldnt trust a SD to put more than speed and heavy mines around my base. If that.


If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: IT alliance benefits Mon, 18 July 2005 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
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crr65536 wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 16:16

What you are saying makes sense, however, does IT have any PRT-defined weaknesses?



From memory ITs packet drivers are only 1/2 effective for catching making IT more susceptible to packet attacks.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Mon, 18 July 2005 07:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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PricklyPea wrote on Mon, 18 July 2005 12:22

crr65536 wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 16:16

What you are saying makes sense, however, does IT have any PRT-defined weaknesses?



From memory ITs packet drivers are only 1/2 effective for catching making IT more susceptible to packet attacks.


Also IT packets *always* decay, regardless of speed. Razz

And the starting pop can get a bad hab in their second planet, complicating things somewhat.

Only my 2 cents , all things considered.



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: IT alliance benefits Mon, 18 July 2005 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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I was aware of IT's weaker packet abilities, however I consider that rather minor since as I understand it no one uses packets for attack unless they're basically guaranteed to work anyways, and for internal mineral transportation IT can use it's gating cargo ability just fine. Certainly IT's "weak packets" is not nearly as weakening as "no gates" or "no minelayers". Moreover, the packet weakness is not really something that an ally can help with, so it doesn't change IT's diplomacy situation. Thus, as I see it, an IT's allying prospects with another race is based solely on what the other race has to offer.

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Re: IT alliance benefits Tue, 19 July 2005 03:42 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Micha

 

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crr65536 wrote on Mon, 18 July 2005 21:52

I was aware of IT's weaker packet abilities, however I consider that rather minor since as I understand it no one uses packets for attack unless they're basically guaranteed to work anyways, and for internal mineral transportation IT can use it's gating cargo ability just fine. Certainly IT's "weak packets" is not nearly as weakening as "no gates" or "no minelayers". Moreover, the packet weakness is not really something that an ally can help with, so it doesn't change IT's diplomacy situation. Thus, as I see it, an IT's allying prospects with another race is based solely on what the other race has to offer.

You're right about the packets, it's a very poor penalty for the advantage you get for instant pop and mineral transport. Besides you'll never try to kill a planet with a packet when the massdriver is still up, if your target is IT or not, in general you won't have enough minerals to make it cost efficient. Defenses are what matter more against packet attacks, so actually WM is the PRT most vulnarable to them ...

But note that although the IT defense against packets is not really weakend, his attack is since he'll need more minerals than other races. Packets cost more minerals for IT and he needs even more since they decay more ... but as said that's a small penalty to pay for such a strong PRT as IT, besides nobody has it so easy to gather all that bor laying around, so it won't be that hard to scratch together those few extra minerals.

mch

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