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Re: CA Balance

Fri, 02 April 2004 12:20

Steve1

Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia

Quote:

One additional problem: CAs cannot build terraforming, so if you remove instaforming, you have to give them back the ability to build it. That probably won't happen if you just hack the check for instaforming.

That might not be so bad. At least then they could utilise their own OA's.

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Re: CA Balance

Fri, 11 February 2005 19:52

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

Sotek wrote on Thu, 01 April 2004 20:31

Speaking as a programmer, I'm going to laugh in your face now.

You have no idea how hard that kind of debugging is if you HAVE the source.

Funny. I read this post and decided to investigate. 20 minutes later, I have a patched version (changing CA PRT starting advantage points to -300).

People often make the mistake of believing that if they cannot do something, then nobody can.

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Re: CA Balance

Fri, 11 February 2005 20:14

Sotek

Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002

PricklyPear wrote on Fri, 11 February 2005 19:52

Sotek wrote on Thu, 01 April 2004 20:31

Speaking as a programmer, I'm going to laugh in your face now.

You have no idea how hard that kind of debugging is if you HAVE the source.

*clap* *clap*.

Yes, you can change that number.

That's easy.

Can you turn off CA instaform?

Because, you see, that's what I said was hard.

Changing the numbers, yes, that's not tough.

Disabling the instaform? That's MUCH harder.

Reading comprehension. You, it seems, don't have it.

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Re: CA Balance

Fri, 11 February 2005 20:29

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

Sotek wrote on Fri, 11 February 2005 20:14

*clap* *clap*.
Yes, you can change that number.
That's easy.
Can you turn off CA instaform?
Because, you see, that's what I said was hard.
Changing the numbers, yes, that's not tough.
Disabling the instaform? That's MUCH harder.
Reading comprehension. You, it seems, don't have it.

Actually, I found disabling the Instaform easier. That was a 1 minute job Wink

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Re: CA Balance

Fri, 11 February 2005 22:53

Steve1

Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia

Quote:

Actually, I found disabling the Instaform easier. That was a 1 minute job

If you really can successfully do this then that would be something. I think it's unfortunate that no one can pick CA because they're usually banned and PP is rarely chosen because the disadvantages are too great. Sad

Most of the other races seem to get a pretty good show in games. Dueling

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Re: CA Balance

Fri, 11 February 2005 23:34

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

Back to the topic of CA balance: when you see so many games with CA banned, I guess it's a sign that something is wrong with the balance. Wink

How do we restore this? I've currently disabled insta-terraform for CA and made the OA weigh 160kt and cost 500 resources (minerals unchanged).

I've also disabled the un-terraforming of a CA world when it leaves a planet.

My thinking is that the OA is already a powerful ability of the CA and so insta-terraform is unnecessary. Also, I've made it heavier so that it's harder to move them around. I thought that 500 resources is a good bargain (equal to that of 5% normal terraforming).

Any thoughts on how to balance CA? (I've not adjusted PRT cost, BTW). If there's some interest, I'll host a pilot game Smile

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Re: CA Balance

Sat, 12 February 2005 00:04

Steve1

Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia

Quote:

Back to the topic of CA balance: when you see so many games with CA banned, I guess it's a sign that something is wrong with the balance.

Absolutely!
I can't sign up to anything right now though as I've got too much MM on my hands from my current game, but your offer sounds very appealing and if it's still available in a few weeks time I might be inclined to join Smile

I wonder though, how much testing have you performed utilising your current modifications? Alterations such as those may well cause bugs to become apparent.

Would you consider allocating more points to a PP race when NAS is chosen? This seems to be a major sticking point for anyone to take this PRT.
To me there's no good reason why Joat should get so many points and not PP.

Those are the two most important modifications IMO, but I could go even further and suggest SS be allocated a few more points for choosing NAS. SS usually seems to do okay in games, but very rarely ever wins. In fact, to date I don't know anyone that has won with that race unless they were allied with someone else.

One other change that I'd like to see would be to give AR instaforming (planet would revert back to original status if AR leaves or SB is defeated), but much less points in the race wizard. The reasoning behind this is that AR doesn't live on the surface at all and surely any SB they build would be ideally suited to their needs. Might be difficult to get the balance right on that race with such an advantage though, so perhaps would be good for another game in the future.

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Re: CA Balance

Sat, 12 February 2005 00:43

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

>how much testing have you performed utilising your current modifications?

I've only done minimal testing, although I am reasonably confident in most of the code I have changed. They will also not require any client changes (except perhaps the OA costs which were changed with StarsEd).

>To me there's no good reason why Joat should get so many points and not PP.

For me, it seems that JoAT should be reduced points rather than PP increased. Although I don't want to make too many major changes.

>give AR instaforming

this sounds like another intriguing possibility for an experimental game.

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Re: CA Balance

Sat, 12 February 2005 03:49

iztok

Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe

Hi!

PricklyPear wrote on Sat, 12 February 2005 05:34

I've currently disabled insta-terraform for CA and made the OA weigh 160kt and cost 500 resources (minerals unchanged).

IMO 500 res for an OA is an overkill. Remember that CA can not do normal terra. They'd need to invest 3000 res into 6 clicks of terra other races would do for 600. And those 3000 res are usually the sum of all terra costs one race does on a planet in a game. I'd say removing instaforming is enough. Leave OAs as they are, CA will still need to bring them to every new planet, and that's quite a nasty task.

Since you can also change the RW points for a race then I'd suggest the following settings:

PRT   RW  diff. comment
PP   +60  +97   to buy better mine eff.
AR   +40  +67   to buy ISb
HE   +35  +45   they're a bit too weak
SD   +35  -18   a bit to cheap for their strenght
SS   +25  +63   need better econ
WM   +20  +32   need a bit better econ
IS   +10  -26   a bit to cheap for all what they get
CA     0    0   same, already lost instaforming
IT   -35  +22   a bit too expensive
JoaT -50  -75   so they take NAS without too much additional points

Most econ races lost their RW points, JaoT the most. OTOH those weak/least played races got some improvement, PP the most, as IMO it NEEDS more minerals to use packets. If I could change code I'd leave its RW points the same, but 'd give it built-in 10% or 20% better mine eff.
Well, I may forget something, but at least those points are the first approximation to start with.

BTW would you mind posting the way you did those changes? There are many coders in our community that could surely use that with great benefit to the rest of us.
BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Sat, 12 February 2005 04:11]

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Re: CA Balance

Sat, 12 February 2005 16:02

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

>IMO 500 res for an OA is an overkill. Remember that CA can not do normal terra.

My modified version leaves the CA the ability to terraform for 50 resources (half price).

>They'd need to invest 3000 res into 6 clicks of terra other races would do for 600.

They start off with an OA and so can terraform at 2% per turn immediately.

I don't think 3,000 resources is a fair number, since (ignoring cost of hull) you have 500 for a 1 OA ship. In 5 turns of terraforming, you recover your outlay. In reality you recover it much faster since your OA would be able to terraform your starter worlds much faster than your colonists would and so you get the benefit of extra resources and growth too.

>Since you can also change the RW points for a race then I'd

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't want to make too many changes right now. I want to do a test game for the CA/AR changes.

>BTW would you mind posting the way you did those changes?

There's nothing magical about it, there are several ppl on IRC who have looked deeply into stars and probably know a lot more about it than me. It's just a question of looking at the code until you understand it - so it require a high level of computer knowledge in that respect.

I will announce a new game in the new game forum shortly.

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Re: CA Balance

Mon, 14 February 2005 21:27

Dogthinkers

Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar

iztok wrote on Sat, 12 February 2005 19:49

Since you can also change the RW points for a race then I'd suggest the following settings:

PRT   RW  diff. comment
PP   +60  +97   to buy better mine eff.
AR   +40  +67   to buy ISb
HE   +35  +45   they're a bit too weak
SD   +35  -18   a bit to cheap for their strenght
SS   +25  +63   need better econ
WM   +20  +32   need a bit better econ
IS   +10  -26   a bit to cheap for all what they get
CA     0    0   same, already lost instaforming
IT   -35  +22   a bit too expensive
JoaT -50  -75   so they take NAS without too much additional points

I like the idea of a few of these, but I think reducing the cost of the popular (read powerful) PRT's is not such a good idea - HE and IT are both strong already without getting more points. I agree that PP, SS, AR, WM could do with a little help, but not too much. It'd make sense to try to keep the average RW cost the same as before, or else play style will change (if we all had more RW points then maybe -f would become less effective, for example)

This'd be a fun topic in the bar!

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Re: CA Balance

Sat, 16 July 2005 19:10

crr65536

Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005

If you'll allow me to post my completely hypothetical idea on the subject ...

There's two ways to balance CAs. One way is to make them weaker (that's what most posts here seem to be attempting to do), but another way would be to make the other races stronger.

My idea is a sort of middle ground ... instead of attaching the Orbital Adjuster and Retro Bomb to the CA PRT, make a new LRT (or perhaps replace an existing LRT, like GR, that nobody takes) and attach them to that. Then CA loses a significant diplomatic advantage, and the other races have a potential to do rather cheap terraforming to. Maybe make it cost like TT's cost * 2 or something.

Completely hypothetical, but what do you guys think?

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Re: CA Balance

Sat, 16 July 2005 20:03

gible

Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

interesting thought...rather than GR which is counter-intuitive...what about ARM? would be a nice opposite to OBRM

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Re: CA Balance

Sat, 16 July 2005 22:14

crr65536

Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005

What I meant was, if an existing LRT was replaced with a new LRT that makes these components available, GR would probably be the best one to replace.

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Re: CA Balance

Sun, 17 July 2005 04:05

Braindead

Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 237
Registered: April 2005
Location: Ohio

crr65536 wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 16:10

(or perhaps replace an existing LRT, like GR, that nobody takes)

I've used GR in games that banned diplomacy (and in a few games with a small number of players) - if you know how to play it, 25% extra in tech research can be extremely useful.

Braindead

Mess with the best, die like the rest!

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Re: CA Balance

Sun, 17 July 2005 05:52

m.a@stars

Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left

Braindead wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 10:05

crr65536 wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 16:10

(or perhaps replace an existing LRT, like GR, that nobody takes)

I've used GR in games that banned diplomacy (and in a few games with a small number of players) - if you know how to play it, 25% extra in tech research can be extremely useful.

GR is also useful in force-genned games where you cannot tweak tech research.

Please find another LRT to tweak. It's not that hard. Razz

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: CA Balance

Sun, 17 July 2005 08:59

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 05:52

Please find another LRT to tweak. It's not that hard. Razz

Mineral Alchemy is the first that springs to mind Wink

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Re: CA Balance

Sun, 17 July 2005 10:34

crr65536

Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005

In any case, how does the idea of associating the OA and Retro Bomb with a LRT, existing or new, sound?

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Re: CA Balance

Mon, 18 July 2005 06:23

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

crr65536 wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 10:34

In any case, how does the idea of associating the OA and Retro Bomb with a LRT, existing or new, sound?

I personally think that OA and retro bomb fit well with CA race and that the insta-terraform is the only 'over-powered' ability they have.

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Re: CA Balance

Mon, 18 July 2005 13:04

vonKreedon

Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

I like the idea of making OA/Retro's available as an LRT. Assuming a straight swap of an existing LRT for the new LRT, I'd suggest either UR or possibly TT because it should be an expensive LRT. UR gets used some for speeding up the productivity of new worlds, but the OA would also help with that, and replacing TT with OAs seems to make sense as well.

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Re: CA Balance

Mon, 18 July 2005 13:35

PricklyPea

Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005

vonKreedon wrote on Mon, 18 July 2005 13:04

Why not replace Mineral Alchemy? I don't think anybody takes that (unless they've got points left to waste).

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Re: CA Balance

Tue, 19 July 2005 10:25

vonKreedon

Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

I'm assuming that we are talking about a straight swap of one LRT, including it's RW point cost, for the new OA LRT. IMO, MA does not cost enough RW points to be replaced by an OA LRT. If we are talking about replacing an existing LRT AND adjusting its RW cost then definitely replace MA and make the OA LRT cost > 80 points.

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Re: CA Balance

Tue, 19 July 2005 10:53

crr65536

Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005

It would not be a "straight swap". I probably shouldn't even have mentioned replacing an existing LRT - I just thought that might perhaps be easier from the "practical" side of things.

Cost? I think that a cost based on hab, like the TT PRT, would be appropriate. In fact, I was thinking either 1.5*TT's cost or 2*TT's cost would be appropriate. Certainly then a race taking both traits would have to give up a lot for them, hopefully the right amount to make races that choose to forego these traits competitive.

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Re: CA Balance

Fri, 13 January 2006 14:23

shiver

Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 153
Registered: December 2005
Location: Bielsko-Biala, Poland

How is this "modified version" going?

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Re: CA Balance

Sun, 15 January 2006 05:33

Micha

Commander

Duel Club Champion 2005

Duel Club Champion 2004

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1

shiver wrote on Fri, 13 January 2006 20:23

How is this "modified version" going?

PricklyPea wrote on Sat, 14 January 2006 00:55

I actually finished an early version. But the problem is finding somewhere to host modified games. I did get a basic autohost running, but had to take it down when I moved house. My new ISP has reliability problems, but I will try putting it back up again.

I'm also working on a new more radical mod. One that will not be compatible with existing races.

e.g.

- large number of LRTs is no longer penalised (for more variety).
- MT items slots killed and used for other things
- Advanced armours LRT
- MiniMorph changed to a warship hull
- Changes to engines
- Some other changes e.g. Red planets not limited to 10 defences
- CA terraform cost double (to balance)
- AR pop grows in space (like IS - thinking of removing ability for IS)
- Genesis device to be converted into a world self-destruction device (for scorched earth strategy)

I'd also like to halve the number of player slots to give each player twice the number of ship designs, but I suspect this would require too much work right now.

Original post and replies moved to the VML Lounge, please continue any discussion about "the more radical mod" there.

mch,
modaw

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