Home » Primary Racial Traits » CA » CA Balance
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Tue, 06 January 2004 22:44   |
|
 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
|
| Quote: |
I've got a new Idea about haw to balance CA's in a larger game:
Can't take IFE, ISB
Must take Prop, Con and Weapons Expensive
I think THAT should balance 'em in line...
Any opinions?
|
Choose Bio cheap, the rest expensive, or just all expensive and widen habs further. Still better than the average race. Plus, it has one of the best offensive weapons in the game.
Instaforming was a mistake, IMO.
If I were to try and balance them, I'd say disallow TT, require 1 band to be immune, can't build OT's or deterraformers and require them to take Bio cheap. Hah!
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Wed, 07 January 2004 06:11 |
|
|
|
the only way to truly limit a CA is to limit the amount of terraforming it can do.
Without having to spend time and resources on terraforming,
it has a significant advantage no other race can match, except perhaps a 10%(20%) HE.....
X
Dude!Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: CA Balance |
Thu, 08 January 2004 12:11 |
|
| EDog |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 417
Registered: November 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA | |
|
I don't know about other players, but I have not played or encountered CAs in any duels. I think a lot of the duelists, especially the more experienced players, tend to avoid CA as a "newbie" race. Any fool can win with a CA; it takes some skill to beat someone with another PRT. I have seen several IS (presumably -f IS), some JoaTs, and a solitary IT. I've tended to use either -f IS or -f PP in the majority of my duels, although I'm considering an SD or WM after the championship season is over...
EDog
http://ianthealy.com
Born, grew up, became an adventurer
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: CA Balance |
Wed, 14 January 2004 02:29 |
|
| timmy |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2003 | |
|
| alexdstewart wrote on Tue, 13 January 2004 23:20 |
I've been thinking...
Economic performance depends almost entirely on pop growth rate.
|
Nope. Your average HG gets 50% of its econ from factories, the average HP a lot more. The above statement's only true if you're talking about -f races.
| Quote: |
So the logic goes... why not restrict CA PRT to max 15% growth rate? A 15% growth CA will still be formidable (Think HP) but it will not be able to roll over everybody early. (think 15% rate is not NF or HG).
It is much simpler and more reliable to place restrictions on growth rate than to impose such artificial things like LRT's, tech settings etc...
What do yea guys think of that?
|
It's a good thought I think, and pretty easy to enforce. It would certainly slow down the CA HGs and -Fs, and make them a less dominant force. but I'd expect a 15% CA HP would still be frighteningly powerful in the right hands. I've never played one in real game, only test-bedded ... perhaps someone with more experience can give their thoughts? live almost everywhere, compound 15/7-8/20+ facs ... 15% GR would be more than liveable IMO.
At some point obviously a low enough GR would cripple, or at least severely slow, even the most clever of CA designs. But these kind of design limits will not really balance the CA prt. They will just deter people from picking CA ... which, since CA is an unbalanced PRT, will balance the games i suppose ...
CA's instaform gives it an "unfair" advantage when it comes to growing pop and settling planets -- an economic advantage. To cripple its GR, or limit its hab, is merely an attempt to neutralize the instaform advantage -- an econ advantage. That kind of defeats the point of having a CA prt in the first place ... i'd rather see a restriction in some other area. For example, HE was corrected by removing gates. This might have been a little overkill, but it was still thematic -- good econ, poor tactical mobility. Trouble is, instaforming is such a huge advantage that it's hard
...
[Updated on: Wed, 14 January 2004 02:32] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Wed, 14 January 2004 02:43 |
|
| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1205
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
|
Hi!
| alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 14 January 2004 05:20 |
Economic performance depends almost entirely on pop growth rate.
|
What about HP designs?
| Quote: |
...why not restrict CA PRT to max 15% growth rate? A 15% growth CA will still be formidable (Think HP) but it will not be able to roll over everybody early. (think 15% rate is not NF or HG).
|
IIRC there was a team game where CAs were limited to 14% growth. In reviews players stated that was a limiting factor only in the beginning, but not much of a difference in the mid and late game.
| Quote: |
It is much simpler and more reliable to place restrictions on growth rate than to impose such artificial things like LRT's, tech settings etc...
What do yea guys think of that?
|
CA race is UNBALANCED, period. 15% PGR will just give it 375 RW points that it can spend elsewhere (cheaper fac's, better mines and tech...). Just consider this one:
CA
IFE, TT, NRSE, OBRM, RS
all habs centered 32 clicks from edges (1 in 6 with TT-7)
15% PGR
pop 1/2500
15/7/21g
11/3/17
weap, con, bio cheap; energy normal; prop, elec expensive
10 points to mineral conc
Factoryless tech, cheap fac and better mines for good ramp, TT to get 99% planets... I'd take it in a game with a bit more room (40+ planets per player) anyday. If there wouldn't be a limit of 15% PGR I'd just go for 16% (35 RW points).
To limit the CA you have to limit its bonus from instaforming. So what mlaub has suggested hits them the most: "I'd say disallow TT, require 1 band to be immune, can't build OT's or deterraformers and require them to take Bio cheap".
If I could make changes to Stars! code I'd make instaforming only one click in each hab per turn, or even nothing. I'd leave CA the Orbital Adjuster, so it could still grow fast, but it would have to PAY for that.
BR, Iztok
...
[Updated on: Wed, 14 January 2004 02:45] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | | | | | |
| Re: CA Balance |
Fri, 16 January 2004 15:14 |
|
| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
|
| Quote: |
Hey Matt, weren't you in a teamgame with a CA limited in growth? (Perhaps the team game Iztok metioned?) I vaguely remember having seen the files ...
|
No, I opted not to play in the CA Team game. I knew "my" team would "have" to have a CA to compete, and that seemed less interesting to me.
I was in the 2nd 101 war you hosted. Then I hosted my own, after that.
| Quote: |
Anyway I'd still have a CA on my team even if it only had 14/15% growth, next to the CA itself there's still the HUGE bonus for the entire team.
And the points you get from such low growth can indeed be invested in many interesting things, they are in no way "lost".
|
Exactly. This is a point that seem to be lost in this discussion. The CA will always have a growth advantage with instaforming. Heck, I bet I can make a 13% work quite well, maybe even a 12%, if I was the only CA. All it takes is a little more care, to completely optimize growth. Something that is difficult with the higher growth races anyway.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Fri, 16 January 2004 21:58 |
|
| alexdstewart |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 2 |
Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
|
"Always" is a dangerous word, just like "never" it should be used only rarely and with extreme care. 
If you think that you can design a CA that can beat the best races out there with 15%, fine. Even if you can design one with 10-13% growth fine. I'll just say "well, can you design a CA that beats everybody one on one with 8% growth rate?" 
It is just a matter of how much not, If. I'll give you a classic tri- immune 10% real growth HE. All the planets are 100% for it and has amazing econ and tech settings with all the LRT that you ever wanted- is it competitive? Not anymore. Now take a 10% growth CA- not many hardly any planets are 100% worse econ settings etc, etc... is it competitive? You gotta be joking!
So 10% growth is too low, 19-20% is too high, maybe 15% is too high too. What about 13%? Feels about right. A low growth CA is a bit like many immune HE- can afford many toys and can grow steady and easy to maximize growth. It is still very powerfull if left alone to grow, but hey you can kill it with a right race design. Something that you CANNOT do with 19% growth CA.
You can kill an HP, ANY HP with one of the best NF designs can you not? Espesially one with 15% growth. Sure it will totally kill you once it gets it's econ up, but then you can't kill AR in late game either.
Well yes, even a low growth CA will get about as many res as any other PRT. But, those PRT have force multiplers while CA does not have any particular combat enchancing skills. Once again the goal is not to debilitate CA but to balance it.
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Sat, 17 January 2004 07:02 |
|
| Steve1 |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
|
| Quote: |
The CA will always have a growth advantage with instaforming.
|
| Quote: |
"Always" is a dangerous word, just like "never" it should be used only rarely and with extreme care.
|
I think in this context Matt was saying "always" as in for example:
SD always has a minelaying advantage.
It doesn't mean that any particular SD in a game will win or even that they will "always" have the biggest or the most minefields, but we can certainly take it for granted that they will always have the starting advantage in that regard.
So in the context, the CA has a growth advantage due to instaforming but it doesn't mean that no other race has advantages, just that they have different ones.
Anyhow, that's my perception of the thread.
[Updated on: Sat, 17 January 2004 07:10] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Thu, 01 April 2004 15:08 |
|
|
|
Why not make CA have to have 400 (or whatever number works) points left over at end? Might as well cripple CA in a way that gives a wide range of possible options for race design.
Like AR, CA then becomes a specialty race that has to play the diplomatic game.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Thu, 01 April 2004 15:18 |
|
|
|
| Sotek wrote on Wed, 10 December 2003 18:32 |
A hacked version would be almost impossible.
It's not a simple numerical change; it'd require finding where in that mess of binary code the instructions for instaforming are and removing them, and replacing them with something that won't just crash.
And patches seem highly unlikely to happen.
Aside from that... yeah, it'd be pretty good.
|
May be possible without source. We are dealing with likely an 'if CA then Instaform' block of code in a few places (both client and server). A testbed can be used to focus on such code. We know the order of events. Butcher the 'if CA' part to become 'if impossible' and instaforming may be gone.
Similarly, it might be possible to hack down the advantage JOAT gets on planet size from 20% to 10%.
A programmer with the right skills and a good debugger might do the trick.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | |
| Re: CA Balance |
Fri, 02 April 2004 00:40 |
|
|
|
| Quote: |
You have no idea how hard that kind of debugging is if you HAVE the source.
Without... it's possible.
It's also possible to throw random ASCII and make a working program.
|
With source it may be easy depending on how designed.
Without...
People do it. How do you think copy protection schemes are cracked? An effort is made to make that hard. I am mainly a c++ programmer myself, but even with my barely dabbling in machine code I can do simple hacking if pushed.
It may be a single test condition in machine code that is the end of the IF CA then INSTAFORM. You change the test to a jmp and perhaps some no-operations if it is that simple and you are done. A good debugger and method help you locate the part you need. Time consuming if you aren't a pro, but can be done.
Why do you think much computer software has as part of its license agreement 'You are not allowed to reverse engineer'?
There may be legal issues to such 'improvements' to the game.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2004 00:44] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: CA Balance |
Fri, 02 April 2004 10:35 |
|
|
|
It is a type of reverse engineering. If you read the terms on software licenses they are quite explicit about not 'disassembling', etc.
Why don't I do it?
1) There may be legal issues.
2) It does take a certain amount of time for a poor hack like me.
I fired up my old 16 bit Borland Debugger last night when I was making the post. Can run Stars full speed, has trouble with system calls in slow mode (Win32 platform may be a factor).
There are brute force type methods to try to isolate a block of code and sometimes ways to automate them to help reduce the time taken. These include things like breakpoints or sticking monkey wrenches in and watching what happens till you find a monkey wrench that only affects CA Instaforming.
This is not a 10 minute job like a simple binary search and switch. Hard to say how long it takes, if things go well it could be done in a day.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: CA Balance |
Fri, 02 April 2004 11:22 |
|
| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
|
| multilis wrote on Fri, 02 April 2004 10:35 |
1) There may be legal issues.
|
Stars! editor is basicly the same thing, there hasn't been any problems with that.
| multilis wrote on Fri, 02 April 2004 10:35 |
This is not a 10 minute job like a simple binary search and switch. Hard to say how long it takes, if things go well it could be done in a day.
|
I'd guess it will take a lot longer then that, but I could easily be wrong. If you feel like doing it, go for it, I'm sure it would be appreciated. You could try talking to Pirate Lord (the author of the Stars! editor) he probably has some insights.
One additional problem: CAs cannot build terraforming, so if you remove instaforming, you have to give them back the ability to build it. That probably won't happen if you just hack the check for instaforming.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Thu Apr 25 19:15:46 EDT 2024
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
On other hand, a well designed 19% PopGrowth rate HG CA will roll over any opponent one on one.
