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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 00:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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One of the original constraints was UR required - to help get the gates up.

Here's my first attempt:

NRSE, CE, OBRM, NAS, UR
0.83g to 3.44g
-116^c to 116^c
rad immune
17% PGR (1 in 4, but only 2 clickS from 1 in 3)

1 in 2500
15/8/16g factories
11/3/14 mines

weap and con cheap, rest expensive

I decided to add OBRM, as with a broad-hab race you simply aren't going to have many worlds to remote mine. I ditched IFE - I know this means we don't get warp 8 from 2400, but I just don't think the other advantages are relevant to a HP IT. I agreed with the previous posts and took CE and NAS for IT races. I took weap and con cheap, to help survive the early years...

It gets 3080 resources per 100% world, and has the mine settings to be able to get there.

I think a much more workable race design is to narrow the grav to minimum (1in7 hab results) and improve the econ to 15/8/19g and 12/3/20 mines. This race would have 3575 resources per 100% and the minerals and tech to back it up.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 00:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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To dethdukk:

I thought about taking IFE and NRSE, but decided it was better without. With radiation immune, you can use the Radiating Hydro-Ram Scoop, which is fine for movement. Taking neither is cheaper than taking both, especially when (as in your case) it increases the number of LRTs to be higher than 4.

Also, why do you take ARM? Isn't it not worth it, since the big advantage is gatable midget-miners at the end, and for IT all miners are gatable?

It seems also that your race narrows temperature considerably. With 7 points starting gravity terraforming, I think gravity would be the field to narrow.

I don't mean to be rude, it just seems to me like your race would not be much better. What freakyboy disliked about his race is that it lags in tech, and I don't see how your suggestions change that.

To dogthinkers:

Perhaps use the narrow-hab version and ditch NRSE (perhaps pay with a mine or two)? With it being the 5th LRT, it gives you very few points, and without it you can do warp 8 in 2400. Or do you want it for the IS-10?

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 02:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
dethdukk wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 04:23

...IT
IFE, NRSE, CE, ARM, NAS

Why ARM? You can GATE ANY miner very early in the game.

Quote:

mines 10/3/10

tech all expensive, start at 3 checked

The race might be looking good in testbeds where you're alone, but 10 mines operated cripple it for PBEM games, and all tech expensive cripples it even more. Its "death spiral" goes so: low mineral output --> much slower fac's building --> lower econ --> slow tech growth --> (+low minerals) --> small number and low tech warships --> prey.

Try doing the standard 100 BB benchmark with your proposed race. I bet you'll have them around turn 80, while most decent races build them around 60.

Regarding immunity: it is for a race that wants to start quickly, and kick someones a.. with that advantage. Big planets help it with its big pop production. With that approach (and a bit of luck) later on that race lives in more space (more good planets), that compensates for less livable planets on average. HPs don't start quickly by default, and they don't need lots of pop, as their pop is good only for operating factories. But with those factories (as Kotk already pointed out) they can make almost ANY planet a production center (even reds give ~200 res) and that's what makes them strong in late game. Early on they are prey, with an immunity even bigger.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goober is currently offline goober

 
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Alternatively,

extra RW points spent on factories

g 0.56-5.84; t -152-112; r 33-93

1/3 habs
18% PGR

econ
1/2500
15/7/17
1kt less g checked

mining
12/3/15

Weapons cheap/Construction normal (or vice versa). Rest expensive.

(Or 1 cheap, rest expensive will give you start@3 + slightly better factory mine settings.)

50 ponts left will buy 10 extra factories at the start so you ramp up more quickly.

1/3 habs gives you more leeway to find high germ planets. Ideally, only planets with 50+ germ MC should be colonised. Although 42 MC is OK. Low G, big greenies are nice though as they can be used exclusively as breeders ...

This race will ramp up reasonably quickly right from the start. The extra min conc means that you can build more PVT's + DD fuel tanks from start too.




Goober.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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What LRTs does your race have goober?

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Ouch. My poor race has been beaten back and forth, left and right. When I put it on I was looking for suggustions not a ton of mockery. Well how about this one.

IT
IS, OBRM, NAS

0.54 - 7.28
-84 - 156
35 - 95
18% growth
1/3 habitable

1/2500
15/8/20 checked
12/3/12

wep - normal
con - 50% less
rest expensive
no check for 3



If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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First off - sorry. I didn't mean my comments to come off as mockery.

Second - let's discuss this second race. What I see could be improved:

Drop ISB. Build orbital forts and gate in enough supplies and people to go directly to starbases.

Take CE (already discussed).

Switch weapons and construction (weapons cheap, construction normal). Weapons are more important.

With the points received from these, you should have enough to drop OBRM, which was one of the original stipulations. At any rate the gravity can be much more narrow - +-7 terraforming is just two levels away. You should be able to move the hab away from the edge, and get more value from your terraforming. If you settle for 17% growth you can get even more.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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I was kidding. I appriciate the advice. I'm just beggining, cant even get 25K by 2550. thank you all.



If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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Can't get 25k by 2550?!? Wow! Laughing

On a more serious note, is that with or without AccBBS? Have you tried Jason Cawley's "the Feds"?

If you're really interested in ITs, maybe you could try this design I've had bouncing around in my head:

<insert clever race name here>
IT
CE, NAS
.58g - 1.72g
-76C - 76C
immune
18%, 1/6 (one click better hab and it says 1/5 though)
1/1000
11/9/15
not checked
10/3/12
Weapons cheap, Construction normal, rest expensive

Obviously this is a HG race, not HP, so I'm going off-topic here. The point is, you should be able to make this hit 25k by 2450 without a problem, especially if you go in small packed instead of tiny and get an extra starting planet (I'm not sure whether the test is supposed to be in small or tiny - it seems like different people use one or the other). You start with Prop 6 ramscoop, which you can use for pop movement because you're radiation immune. You can also use medium freighters or privateers from turn one, choosing whichever suits your starting mineral concentrations better. When you colonize, you bring along enough colonists and minerals to build an orbital fort with a gate in 2-3 years.

The race also keeps remote miners, which can be good for trade since so many people take OBRM. The mine settings are not really nice, and the G box is unchecked, but as IT you can move minerals from places that have them to places that don't very easily.

Now I bet one of the experts around here (I'm a newbie myself) can make some good modifications to my race to make it better. Still, you should be able to get 25k by 2450 very easily with this one.

Jason Cawley also suggested an IT HG race that should be easy to get 25k@2450 with - it's called "The Foundation" and you can read about it here.
...

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goober is currently offline goober

 
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crr65536 wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 12:13

What LRTs does your race have goober?



Doh!

NRSE/OBRM/NAS

Fortunately this shouldn't have been too hard to work out.




Goober.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

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Hi!
crr65536 wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 21:26

...The race also keeps remote miners, which can be good for trade since so many people take OBRM.

Well, have you ever checked what's cost for a reasonable fleet of remotes? With reasonable I have in mind an equivelent of at least 2000 mines, preferably 4000. What do you expect to get back for that big investment?
In your situation I'd rather offer remotes for a rent, for modest price of 20% or so of mind minerals, and establish yourself as an "Interstelar Mining and Shipping Company". I bet you'd get lots of friends this way. Wink
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Spelling mistakes sure change what a sentence says dont they? I get around 20k by year 2450, regardless of what race im playing, so its probably just the way I play. also, thats without ABBS, with it I'm fine.

[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2005 18:51]




If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 14 July 2005 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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As I understand it the standard benchmark is with AccBBS. Without it, I doubt there would be any "monster" ARs.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Fri, 15 July 2005 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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well somebodys sure to look in and tell us sooner or later.


If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Fri, 15 July 2005 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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dethdukk wrote on Fri, 15 July 2005 12:39

well somebodys sure to look in and tell us sooner or later.


If you mean about testbeds, the standard is small, packed with AccBBS.

HP IT is very doable as they have the easiest mineral balancing of any race and can keep their worlds ramping regardless of concentrations. Only downside is that it is an expensive PRT which makes getting top end factory settings more difficult and will either cost you habs or research.

CAL

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Fri, 15 July 2005 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Thanks. That makes a monster race a lot easier to create.
Off topic, crr65536, are you playing in Newbie Challenge 3?


[Updated on: Fri, 15 July 2005 15:01]




If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Fri, 15 July 2005 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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No, but I'm in Newbie Challenge I and Together Again.

Yes, as far as I can tell, only the economic PRTs (CA, JOAT, IT, IS) can get to 50k at 2450 in AccBBS (and AccBBS roughly doubles your economy until you run out of room). While it is not impossible to get so many resources with other races, it requires them to either be really lucky or be optimized for testbeds enough to be unplayable in a real game.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Sun, 14 August 2005 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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Okay, after some testing, I've created what I think would be a working HP IT race. It doesn't satisfy the requirements freakyboy had in mind for his IT, but I think it would work for me. I testbedded it to 34k by 2450 Very Happy , in Small Packed, with no MM after turn 30, with AccBBS and without Maximum Minerals. It used 25 planets and maxed out at 82k.

Without further ado, the race:

<insert clever name here>
IT
CE, OBRM, NAS
0.67g-2.24g
-100C - 76C
immune
15%, 1/5
1/2500
15/7/20/3g per factory
10/3/20
Weapons cheap, Construction and Propulsion normal, rest expensive and starting at 3
0 points remain

And now, the rationale:

OBRM:
Needed the points, increases planetary production. IT can transport minerals around easily, and with 20 mines operated planets seemed to have enough of them.

NAS, CE:
Both are disadvantages that are mitigated by the IT PRT. I needed the points.

The hab:
IIRC gravity is 24 clicks from the edge, and temperature is 25 clicks from the edge, so even with full terraforming it stays (almost) out of the range where the probability of finding planets drops, while still being slightly shifted to give a few points. Radiation immunity gives more planets and allows you to use the Prop 6 scoop (discussed later).

15%:
Would like to improve this to 16% (17% seems excessive to me), but would have to give up some of the other goodies.

Econ:
Basically standard HP, so far as I can tell. The high number of mines guarantees that at least the HW will be able to export a fair amount of germanium to other planets, and some other high Germanium concentration places will probably export a decent amount too. A perfect planet had 3740 resources per turn, and with the type of hab the race uses you can get a good number of perfect or near-perfect planets.

Tech:
Weapons cheap is pretty much standard.
Construction normal is useful, especially for IT gates.
Propulsion is normal so that you can still get prop 16 in this lifetime, for the warp 8 scoop, 100/any gates, and gravity +
...

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 15 August 2005 00:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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I personally would rather have more effitient but less overall mines.


If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 15 August 2005 05:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
crr65536 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 05:34

"Start at 3" box:
... it allows you to start with the prop 6 scoop (which needs energy 2). Not only is it better than the DLL7 at every speed except 7, but in my testbed I found it very useful for scouting. All your starting ships start with the scoop, and so you can send your scouts out, and they will probably not run out of fuel...
...but will give your neighbours free levels in prop when they'll be hounting down 2 Guns Dead those scouts and give away your PRT and lots of info about LRTs.

Also, for scoops in your ships you'll use germ. The same germ that you'll use for lots of your factories. Since you don't have remotes or better mines, you'll be severely germ-limited, when it will come to massive shipbuilding in late mid game and later. Being HP you aim at long games, but lack of germ will cripple fighting potential of your race there. Wheelchair You better do something about that if you want this race to be successfull. Weights
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 15 August 2005 05:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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I'm not sure if taking an immunity and lowering the growth to 15% is worth it.
Those two things would seem to cancel each other out, with the immunity costing a lot more points.

The main advantage of the immunity is that you get a bigger average hab - hence capacity - compared to the same starting hab for a non-immune.

However if you dropped the immunity in order to increase growth to 16% and increase hab to at least 1 in 4 you might get more capacity anyway and have similar space for pop at the start.
Quite a complicated balance methinks.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 15 August 2005 06:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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crr65536 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 04:34

The hab:
IIRC gravity is 24 clicks from the edge, and temperature is 25 clicks from the edge, so even with full terraforming it stays (almost) out of the range where the probability of finding planets drops, while still being slightly shifted to give a few points.


Now, unlike the immunity thing, this does tie in with the maximum capacity later on, for less now.
The only reason not to shift the hab further is that you eventually get less planets after full terra.
If you do shift further you will gain points to expand the starting hab.
So you are swapping more greens at the end for some at the start.

To me this would seem to be the opposite game plan of taking an immunity.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 15 August 2005 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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iztok wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 05:26

Hi!
crr65536 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 05:34

"Start at 3" box:
... it allows you to start with the prop 6 scoop (which needs energy 2). Not only is it better than the DLL7 at every speed except 7, but in my testbed I found it very useful for scouting. All your starting ships start with the scoop, and so you can send your scouts out, and they will probably not run out of fuel...
...but will give your neighbours free levels in prop when they'll be hounting down 2 Guns Dead those scouts and give away your PRT and lots of info about LRTs.

Also, for scoops in your ships you'll use germ. The same germ that you'll use for lots of your factories. Since you don't have remotes or better mines, you'll be severely germ-limited, when it will come to massive shipbuilding in late mid game and later. Being HP you aim at long games, but lack of germ will cripple fighting potential of your race there. Wheelchair You better do something about that if you want this race to be successfull. Weights
BR, Iztok



All the engines except the FM cost germanium, and I figured IFE is not really worth the points, especially for IT. Not taking NRSE gives you more options. If you don't like using the RHRS, you can use the cheaper (in germanium costs) DLL7. In my testbed it worked fine, although that doesn't say anything about real games.

If I used the DLL7 engine, they would get almost as much free prop research anyways. Since the RHRS requires two energy levels, someone killing them might get those cheaper levels instead. And, if you're worried about neighbors "stealing" your technology, you still have the option of sending out little cheap scouts with QJ5's and Bat Scanners. You don't lose anything, at this stage in the game, by not taking NRSE, except possibly a couple of mines or something that would be bought with points from NRSE (which would net fewer points anyways because it would make (disadvantages - advantages) greater than 3). If you're HP, hopefully your diplomatic situation will
...

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 15 August 2005 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Quote:

Slightly cheaper than 10/3/20 is 11/3/15. Would this work for you? ATM at 25% capacity, the HW generates at least 165kT of germanium per turn. At 50% capacity, that minimum is doubled to 330kT per turn. I figured that the HW alone would be able to send out a good deal of germanium to developing colonies. However, if you think that 11/3/15 is better, that is entirely your choice.


I believe that yuors will generate more minerals, but that it takes too long to set up, and that even HP's need to start at some sort of fast rate, otherwise they dont live to see end game.




If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 15 August 2005 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
crr65536 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 16:18

All the engines except the FM cost germanium, and I figured IFE is not really worth the points, especially for IT. Not taking NRSE gives you more options. If you don't like using the RHRS, you can use the cheaper (in germanium costs) DLL7. In my testbed it worked fine, although that doesn't say anything about real games.

I'm not arguing for FM. IT's the second of two races that can afford to not use FM and still remain competitive. I'd like to tell you the simple fact your race will use more germ for factories than other races. Also, using scoops for your ships will take another dent in already lower amount of germ available. And your race doesn't have another mean of geting more germ.
I've played once a HP in such a situation. If I wouldn't be lucky and get alien miner from the first MT that arrived I'd be able to build only about 1500 AMP Nubs, despite having iron for at least 4000. That's the situation I have in mind when using HP - long games, most tech maxed, with thousands of warships, where available minerals decide about winner. If you want to be one, you better cover that inherent HP's germ shortage, and don't make it worse with scoops.
BR, Iztok

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