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Re: Cheats you like to play? Thu, 14 November 2002 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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Registered: November 2002
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@ Robert

I see it like coyote when you allowed as host the Players du build SB cheap you give some races big advantage/benefit(dont know the korrect word)
When I think of an IT in a big univers who send at the start some smal fleets away to kolonize 500lj away and have then (if the planet isn't colonized) 2 years later a OO/300 gate there .

If you want that your race can do this you have to build the race like this , not us some bugs .

what race do you play normal IT ? Twisted Evil

ccmaster
King of the Traders

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Thu, 14 November 2002 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 99
Registered: November 2002
Robert wrote on Thu, 14 November 2002 13:36

beamers beat chaff?
not really, you can put shields to chaff to make them harder
for beamers to destroy, or even great shields on them, so
beamers will target other beamers first, not chaff...




Beamers beat chaffe. Look at the amount of sheilding on chaffe versus firepower of opposing beamers and you will find that the beamers will blow away chaffe without really noticing it, particularly if you use gatling type weapons in one slot.
Additionally proper use of battle orders can negate sheilded chaffe...

Nice thing about Stars! There ain't no one gauranteed strategy that wins on the battle board Smile



"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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icon1.gif  Re: Cheats you like to play? Thu, 14 November 2002 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
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Who doesn't use sappers? At the very least your beam BB's should have them in the wing slots, and often in the forward slot as well.
You can also make specialized sapper cruisers to run in and take down enemy shields asap.
As far as having jammers on every combat hull, you should do this anyway.

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Thu, 14 November 2002 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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I take always 4 sappers in my battleships , helps a lot Very Happy


ccmaster

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 03:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 54
Registered: November 2002
What do you think on using the SS pop steal as a trading tool?
If the other side agree to sell some population, is it still a cheat?
The SS can be the slave traders of the game, and I personally think it would be cool.

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 03:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
ok... several things...

first of all it of course always depends on enemy designs.
there is never a perfect design, and i never said this is
the ultimate trick!

and i _did_ say this is a nice trick, but it usually works
only once, didnt i?

and the rocketship with 4 sappers is for example not in range
of shielded chaff for 2 turns... so you need to have fast
sappers somewhere... and many people just dont have that.

and maybe i was misunderstood:
it _is_ possible to let enemy beamers fire at your beamers
first, at least for one round, and your chaff survive the
beamers... this might only be useful for the first shot,
and it might not turn the whole battle, but can _in some cases_
help, for example if you are hopelessly weaker and just want
to get that one shot for his bombers/frighters before being
destroyed...

i would never build only shielded chaff, but when i realize
enemy designs are weak and vulnerable for this, i will always
concider it.
also i play stars for having fun, and prefere trying strange
tricks to beat the mighty enemy and have some fun with it to
create the best monster and crush all weak races with pure
masses... i think it is the greatest fun to beat someone with
much less force than he has by some smart action...
the victory is much sweeter this way...

and i am not mr it!
actuylly i never played it, i think... and if your enemy is
so stupid to let an it keep a planet for 2 round with some
peoples there, well.... you remember mass driver become also
very cheap with cheap starbases?
so how does an it (especially an it) want to keep a planet
in enemy space with only 5K people there???
the trick brings the it-advantage, but also the defender gets
the possibility to counter that... i dont see the problem...

and i play in 2 games (longway and crossroads) where the trick
is allowed, both huge universes with 16 players,
and in one game there is not
a single it, and the other is a very special rules game, where
it becomes even more powerful, and still there are only 2
it players there... (or 3???)...
so it might not be concidered that powerful it seems...

ok... now something different...

we were talking about cheats and i would like to introduce one which has not been mentioned before Smile

i never tried it, but it was something about letting the minerals
vanishing from the surface vanishing while being bombed...
i have the description somewhere in my mails, deep digged in,
but maybe someone knows and can explain better how this could
be used? it was something like loading minerals to enemy ships
(non frighters) and the engine would forget that minerals existed
or so... can someone help out? (barrie, are you here?)

robert






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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Quote:

we were talking about cheats and i would like to introduce one which has not been mentioned before

i never tried it, but it was something about letting the minerals
vanishing from the surface vanishing while being bombed...
i have the description somewhere in my mails, deep digged in,
but maybe someone knows and can explain better how this could
be used? it was something like loading minerals to enemy ships
(non frighters) and the engine would forget that minerals existed
or so... can someone help out? (barrie, are you here?)


Yup, very nasty and unfair bug, should definately be banned.
How it works: If you don't want your enemy who is bombing your world to have the minerals just upload them in their fleet that has no cargo room, *poof* minerals gone.
Luckily happened once (that I know of, a smart cheater (???) wouldn't upload all minerals, but leave a few on the surface) in all the games I played, a flamewar as result, the guy who used it argued that since chaff was allowed this illegal uplaod bug was also allowed ...

mch

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
Lt. Commander

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BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011

Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas
" Shocked "


What do you think on using the SS pop steal as a trading tool?
If the other side agree to sell some population, is it still a cheat?


If it is not specifically allowed in the game it would be considered a cheat.

"DON'T DO IT, your right leg will get shorter!"

Don't Steal! The government doesn't like competition!
Very Happy




BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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It is no cheat , it is a bug .
So when you sell a SS Pop it is unfair against other Players
in the game .

ccmaster
King of the Traders

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 54
Registered: November 2002
It can be seen as a race advantage, like the CA ability to transform other's worlds, the IT ability to let others use their stargates for a cost, SD selling improved minlaying ships, and other race options.
Diffrent races have diffrent uniqe things to sell to other races, the SS have the ability to sell population.

I think the main problem with the ability is when used to attack: steal all the population from an enemy planet, then use "your" new population to take over the planet.

When both sides agree, how is it diffrent from the CA ability to sell terraforming?

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bearhard is currently offline Bearhard

 
Civilian

Messages: 1
Registered: November 2002
Location: Brazil

it cant be compared to the CA terraforming because the CA was made to do that, the SS wasnt made to steal pop, and if it is allowed, his offensive propose would be legal too, the same way that CA terraforming can be used to de-terraform enemy worlds


No son los muertos los que en dulce calma
La paz disfrutan en una tumba fría
Muertos son los que tienen murta el alma
Y están vivos, todavía

Miguel de Ortiz Y Ortustre

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EDog is currently offline EDog

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 416
Registered: November 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA
Re: SS Pop Stealing

I was originally a (fairly vocal) supporter of this as a valid SS trait. Then we played a game where we allowed it to be used. Absolutely terrifying. There's really no defense when a 98%-cloaked freighter fleet moves into orbit and uploads your ENTIRE POPULATION. Even if they leave some stragglers, they can popdrop the world the next turn and suddenly they've got a world for virtually nothing. You can't see them coming, and they can steal pop even if there is a starbase in orbit.

Yes, it makes sense for the SS to be able to do this. It is, however, such a powerful ability that it severely unbalances the game and should be disallowed. I have this bit of advice for anyone considering allowing it in a game:

Play an SS if it's allowed. Then you have recourse when somebody steals your pop out from under you.

Actually, if a game was limited to only SS races, this might be very interesting to allow.

EDog



http://ianthealy.comicgen.com
Born, grew up, became an adventurer

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icon11.gif  Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FurFuznel is currently offline FurFuznel

 
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Messages: 437
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EDog wrote on Fri, 15 November 2002 15:43

Yes, it makes sense for the SS to be able to do this.


I do not understand what you mean with the above statement? Confused2 It does not make sense for one race to be able to steal another race's population unless everyone in the game is playing the same race. OR are you suggesting that the SuperStealth have the ability to interbreed with all the other races in the universe? Rolling Eyes Wink

If it makes sense that SuperStealth can steal someone else's population and make it their own than allied races shoud all be able to colonize the same worlds (with reduced population limits and growth rates of course). Wink

FurFuznel


[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2002 16:16]




Shadallark <==> FurFuznel
Mental anguish is for those who choose to think - FurFuznel
running Mac OS X 10.6.7

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icon6.gif  Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
Lt. Commander

RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011

Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas
Quote:

OR are you suggesting that the SuperStealth have the ability to interbreed with all the other races in the universe?


The oracles say the SS race has evolved into a superior race that is able to breed with anything anytime anywhere. This is referred to as the "AAA" effect and is a side effect of a virus or bug introduced by a series of antidotes known as the "JRC series". JRCs were originally know as the "Jeff Repairs Cheats antidote" for several bugs, but became so corrupted in themselves that they were reduced to simply JRCs and declassified as plagues. Rumor has it that only a Supernova event can cure this the galaxies. Nod




BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ron is currently offline Ron

 
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ROFL


Ron Miller
Stars! AutoHost

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 54
Registered: November 2002
err... maybe I wasn't clear enough:
The SS pop steal as a WEAPON IS unbalanced and too strong, I agree. And true, it wasn't ment to happen, it's a bug.

BUT, so is chaff, and it's fun and people play it, because although it's a bug, it won't unbalance metters.

So, SS pop steal as a weapon is bad, but what if it's used as a trading tool? while pop stealing from enemy planets would remind banned, pop stealing from other players acorrding to a pact would not unbalance anything. It's a trading tool. The SS has the ability to buy and sell colonists, becoming the slave trader of the game Smile.

And the breeding part is irrelevent, it works, so yeah, I guess SS can do it Smile. Besides, population is treated by the thousends in Stars!, so the slaves only breed among themselves, there are certianly enough to do so.

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icon8.gif  Re: Cheats you like to play? Fri, 15 November 2002 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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Messages: 912
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

SS Pop steal

All aguments you told are "funny" , BUT it is a gug , and so it isent allowed to use it .
If you allowed it , it makes the SS to powerful (If you us it as weapon or "slave trader " )
Because the HE are powerfull because of there *2 grow . If you allowed trading Pop for SS you have a SS Race with
Imun ALL
pop grow 3%
MAX REscource by Population (1Res for 700)
Faktories 10 15 res ect
mines max
tech all 50 % lower cost
ECT

You only need a ally to give you some pop after getting scaners.
what will be fast with 50 % lesser research .

So if you have at gamestart a ally with grow 18-20 % ands some years time ( 30 years or so ) nowone can stop you , because
you have planets with 1,1 mill max population and more then 4k res , have maximum minerals for there konzentrations , have max tech ( all50%less coast ) ,and big fleets with 75% steals .

So no race can beat them now . And the game will make no fun now . Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed


ccmaster
King of the Traders

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Sat, 16 November 2002 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EDog is currently offline EDog

 
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Messages: 416
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>Yes, it makes sense for the SS to be able to do this.

>I do not understand what you mean with the above statement? It >does not make sense for one race to be able to steal another >race's population unless everyone in the game is playing the >same race. OR are you suggesting that the SuperStealth have the >ability to interbreed with all the other races in the universe?

What I mean is that with their stealthy nature it makes sense for them to be able to slip in under enemy radar, introduce a mind-controlling substance into the planetary water supply, conscript the entire population, and then cart them off for slave labor. Maybe I'm reading more into it than the actual ability, but that's how I imagine it happens. Anyway, I still disallow it in every game I host.

EDog



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Born, grew up, became an adventurer

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Sun, 17 November 2002 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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SS Pop Steal is a bug since colonist transfer is not allowed under any circumstances. Once upon a time it was until Hilton Lange (developed the first web site which eventually became 'The List') and I designed a breeder/slave race combo and whomped everyone into the ground terribly quickly. After that Stars! was changed to not allow colonist transfers to take place (2% tri-immune CA coupled w/20% IS race).

Chaffe is not a bug.
1) The targeting algorithm works as advertised. Just because you can design cheap ships that are more attractive to missiles than expensive ships does not mean it is a bug.
2) For four patches the game designers declined to make any changes that would eliminate chaffe.



"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Mon, 18 November 2002 02:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne is currently offline Wayne

 
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We are the BORG we will assimilate you.


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Re: Cheats you like to play? Mon, 18 November 2002 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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@ Apelord
Someone who understands me Very Happy

@ Wayne

Try to assimilate the traders you have no chance to do Cool



ccmaster
King of the Traders


[Updated on: Mon, 18 November 2002 20:45]

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Is this a cheat??? Sun, 24 November 2002 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
Ok... i have some "trick" and would like to hear your opinion
if this is considered cheating or not... I have been a victim
of this in a current game...

So... In all games players drop out or are killed, but remain
alive, as they still have ships or some bad planets.
So it is possible to transfer ships to them.

This can be used in 2 forms:
1.) I attack another player's planet and want to smart-bomb
his pop away, which takes a long time. So i transfer some
smart-bombers to "dead" players, which bomb that world, too.
This can have a major impact on the bombing speed, especially
with smart bombs... Ok, the fleet is gone and you dont get
it back. But thats worth it if you get a fully built up
planet in 1-2 turns...

2.) You are attacked by someone on a world with a starbase
and no fleet. You can give some ships to other players and
alter the starting position on the battlefield, and so
his bombers are in range of the missles on your station,
and before he kills the base you shoot down his expensive
b52s and he cant harm your planet... you just lose the
station, and until he gets new bombers, he can do really
nothing...

So tranfer of ships to "dead" players can be used to get
some advantage...

Well.... is this cheating???

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Re: Is this a cheat??? Mon, 25 November 2002 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EDog is currently offline EDog

 
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Thumbs Down

Absolutely this is cheating. It is a blatant abuse of the in-game computations. Transferring ships to "dead" players in order to gain an advantage clearly goes against the spirit of the game and I would ban any player caught using this tactic in a game I was hosting.

This reeks to me of the type of cheat that falls along the lines of N/S/E/W minefield travel or SS pop-stealing; it's an exploitation of the limitations of the game engine or a bug in the code. Why then is chaff generally considered not to be a cheat? Well, for one thing none of the patches have "fixed" it, so it has become a generally acceptable strategy. You don't get something for nothing from chaff - they cost resources and minerals to build. Using dead player fleet bombers _is_ getting something for nothing - increased bombing efficiency (although you do lose the ships in the process, so I guess I'm way off here). Still, there's something fishy in Denmark about this tactic and I think it should go on the list of known cheats.

EDog



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Born, grew up, became an adventurer

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Re: Is this a cheat??? Tue, 26 November 2002 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 74
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Greetings all,

Ok now for some insight into the "features" and "cheats" of Stars.

Transfer to Dead players only works if the player was an enemy to your target. So in other words if you transfer the ship to a friend then it would work, though if you transfer to an enemy the bombing fleet will automatically be targeted. Usually if I am ready to die I set EVERYBODY to enemy, and therefore makes it imposible for players to further take advantage of my race. Takes care of that problem.

Chaff: Rather than thinking about being in a gunfight and using thumb tacks, those guns would be the same as beams in Stars as it is close combat, in otherwords Chaff isn't used for that. Now if you have a guy a couple hundred yards away and you have a missle launcher, using flares to distract that heat seaking missle would be an example of the chaff, or using real world _chaff_ to distract radar guided missles. As far as AR races, if you are playing an AR and you don't have enough frieghters around your border worlds to do a quick evacuate you are playing the race wrong. Sure Kill starbase is a killer for AR starbases but that implies that you leave your colonists still in tact. Also keep in mind AR have not only a tech advantage but an extremely powerful ability to mass produce ships. So in other words build ships that are light weight and can be gated anywhere and have frieghters around your planets just to be safe. The thing is you should have them orbiting your planets in the first place regardless of your PRT as it is highly likely that your neighbor has a Mass Driver close by.

Split Fleet Dodge: People who consider this a cheat are those who missunderstand Battle Tactics. If your enemy is doing split fleet dodge then he is trying to cover something in the first place, his planet. If someone uses a full laden Frieghter that would imply he is around a planet. The majority of the time I have seen players use this is when I have lead them to believe I am after his fleet (Mahan Style Warfare) when indeed I am forcing him to move his fleet towards his reinforcement while I advance and take over his week planets. Once he has gathered a large enough fleet to conquer me I split MY fleet and further disorient my enemy. This is NOT a cheat but rather a style of warfare that is comonly practiced.

Minefield Imunities: In real world situation this isn't possible, so I agree this is a cheat.

SS Pop Steal: Could be considered a "feature" but keep in mind that you have to set a WAYPOINT task to do this, in other words it is a manipulation of the source code and an overlook of programing. Though not ment to be this could be used as a RP tool in that the SS are similar to the Mystery Trader (being able to spy on other races and the ability to be a super tech monger in the late games...), but that is still oversight and a manipulation. If it is ever alowed, keep you eye out and make sure to have a good back up fleet all along your border with scouts all over the place if possible (and keep them minefields up!).

Hacks of Any Sort: Evil or Very Mad

Cheap Starbases: IMHO This is a cheat, though there is no possible way to really stop it. In real life it is impossible to say I am going to build a car with no interior and at the last minute change your mind just as it is finished and have the engine pop there wihtout a problem. In fact it would cost you EXTRA to get all the suplies rushed to you view next year mail and god knows the cost of man power it would take, and cost, resource wise to get it done sooner. Since Next year mail isn't available in Stars, I highly doubt this was ment to be...

Other than that if there are other cheats I belive to try and think of it in real life terms how each "feature" would be used in real life, or if it is a shortcut around the old fashion way. If there is any way of getting something out of the program that originally ment to be and can't be seen as a use that is used in actual warfare, then it is a cheat.

Then again how many MP games have I been in...? Very Happy Rolling Eyes Angel

Than
...




"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: Cheats you like to play? Sun, 08 December 2002 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Mischief is currently offline Mischief

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 4
Registered: November 2002
Location: Out there....watching
All
Here's an interesting one...especially for SS races
An MD10 fires a 10KT packet at a reasonably developed enemy planet say 200Ly away. First turn it travels 50Ly, second turn it has travelled 150Ly, on the third turn it hits, with very low damage, and nobodys really hurt...big deal, would you dodge 10KT at w10? Confused
Unfortunately there is a large 98% cloaked galleon fleet between the two planets at say 140Ly from the firing planet. On turn one, the packet is visible to all parties, on turn 2, the galleon fleet intercepts the packet at warp4 and unloads his entire mineral cargo into the packet, pick a number say 10,000KT, on turn 3 enemy planet is hit and dead. Shocked
The victim has no idea how a 10KT packet can wipe out his planet, and probably calls "Cheat" Mad
According to Apelord's 3 rules this is definately under Rule 3, and the only law this is breaking is the laws of physics ie. Conservation of momentum.
The problem is it looks like a cheat, particularly if you did this simultaneously at numerous positions as a precursor to an invasion, and without giving away the details, it's difficult to prove it's not cheating.
Fun though
Twisted Evil

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