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CA Balance Wed, 10 December 2003 12:55 Go to next message
boneandrew is currently offline boneandrew

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 35
Registered: June 2003
Location: Detroit
With the common knowledge that the CA trait is rather powerful compared to others, I had this idea that may balance it without changing race creation points in the RD wizard: CAs have claim adjusters that terraform for free; force them to build these things instead of just having the automatic terraform interent to the race. Take away automatic terraform.

They will still be able to terraform quickly, especially after they get a decent fleet of terraformers with good engines built, but that'll slow down the initial expansion advantage they get from the completely free terraforming.

Any thoughts?

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 10 December 2003 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002
... how do you plan to do this?

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 10 December 2003 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
This is a good idea.

Unfortunatly, it would require changing the source code, which we don't have available.



- LEit

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 10 December 2003 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boneandrew is currently offline boneandrew

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 35
Registered: June 2003
Location: Detroit
Hey, don't get practical on me! Mad Rolling Eyes

Yes, that would involve changing the source code. Thus, probably only useful for a hacked version or another patch.

But is there anything wrong with the idea, assuming it is possible?

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 10 December 2003 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002
A hacked version would be almost impossible.
It's not a simple numerical change; it'd require finding where in that mess of binary code the instructions for instaforming are and removing them, and replacing them with something that won't just crash.

And patches seem highly unlikely to happen.

Aside from that... yeah, it'd be pretty good.

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Re: CA Balance Thu, 11 December 2003 07:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
schonhult is currently offline schonhult

 
Civilian

Messages: 3
Registered: December 2003
Location: Sweden
Was this not the case in earlyer patches? The autoterraform was added later if I recall correct Wink

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 24 December 2003 06:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigdave is currently offline bigdave

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 22
Registered: December 2003
Location: London
How old would the patch be before ca could instaform?
If it would be playable it would be nice to have another race to choose in a fair game...

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 24 December 2003 08:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve1

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia
It's probably easier to just penalise any CA race by making them start with say 100 leftover points. Everyone will have their own opinion on how many points it should actually be to make it more balanced, but IMO 100 points is a good starter. Razz

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 24 December 2003 08:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
50 lefover points AND mandatory UR, MA and Bleeding Edge Reseach/generalised reseach is my good starting point. If the CA has all that, I would think twice before I start shooting CA on sight. Disco


In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: CA Balance Wed, 24 December 2003 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
There was a discussion on RGCS about race balancing. You can search for "Stars handicap!". Each PRT has to leave unused
amount of RW points like:
AR 50
SS/PP 100
WM/HE 125
SD 137
IT/IS 150
JOAT 175
CA 200
Those settings were used in some games, but I found only one topic about results (blitz game, very balanced and very long-lasting for a blitz).
BR, Iztok

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Re: CA Balance Thu, 25 December 2003 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
Registered: December 2002
one way to discourage CA's is to at the start of the game announce all CA's HW's Very Happy . as far as making CA's take those expensive LRTs, UR can be quite usefull, remember that. Instead of UR have em take NRSE, this MAY give em points but its real trouble, limited to low warps early on and no scoops it can cause fuel problems.


Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: CA Balance Mon, 05 January 2004 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve1

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia
I'm not so sure that announcing a CA's HW at the start would be such a big deal. Any close neighbours should be able to discover the HW by standard scouting anyhow (unless you by default play the hostile neighbour routine and shoot down all scouts that enter your territory).
As for NRSE; lots of people choose that in conjunction with IFE so that's no drama. You could ban a CA from choosing IFE as an added measure, but unless you penalise them in some other way on top of that, they might still be tough to beat.



[Updated on: Mon, 05 January 2004 11:38]

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Re: CA Balance Mon, 05 January 2004 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
Googly Eyes
I wonder if anyone can create a monster CA with the following handicaps:
Can take no IFE or ISB
Must take MA and NRSE AND set Propulsion to Expensive.

That should take away the early expansion advantages of a CA. Twisted Evil



In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: CA Balance Mon, 05 January 2004 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Quote:


I wonder if anyone can create a monster CA with the following handicaps:
Can take no IFE or ISB
Must take MA and NRSE AND set Propulsion to Expensive.

That should take away the early expansion advantages of a CA. Twisted Evil


Except for the MA, I won a game <easily> using a CA TT w/IFE and expensive prop. In retrospect, I think I could have had better results without IFE and w/NRSE. (the first and last time I played a CA, just see if they were actually as powerful as I have always claimed. Game ended 2499, I had 313K/3600 cap ships/at war from Y20+/it was a advanced player game/I took 1 ally, and regretted it, as I could have killed him and had his planets also.).

I just looked up the race design I used vs a redesign based on your thoughts, and I could easily make it work (hmmm...). I could change my original 1 in 12 starting hab to a 1 in 6 at best, <if> I spent the bonus bucks all in hab... Meaning, I'd have <alot> more initially green planets within a specified radius, therefore reducing the need to have IFE. I think this would work quite well. As to the MA, I'd just drop the mine eff I had, down by 1 notch, something I was going to do anyway. Smile

-Matt

Tip - Cheap Con + running to lvl 8 immediately, allows for 3 things. LG freighters, SFX's, and frigate boosters. Used correctly, you can boot strap your way to glory, albeit with work.



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
Blast it! Evil or Very Mad

Back to the drawing board again... Sad
Maybe CA is not that unbalanced after all- I mean sure they have twice the econ- 1-2 tech levels above you- less if costant pop drop is there. But 2 to 1 victory is the classic target of brilliant strategy. Maybe using tactical advantages of of other PRT you can outmanuver the superior enemy- causing twice as much damage as taking isn't that much of a big deal.

Jihad battleships with super battle comp and jamming are superior to Juggs with 7 comp. So there might be some force multipliers- somehere. Confused



In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002
Most of the force multipliers, unfortunately, are just as accessible to the CA.

The SD has advantages, but a slow steady attack will stop him well enough; his exploding minefields are nasty, but if you sweep them before letting anything important (like chaff) get in them, they're relatively harmless.

IT, well, he can group. But if your initial fleet is larger than his entire fleet+next two years of building, he's rather screwed.

JoAT? No. JoAT is pure econ.
IS? No. You can slow, but your advantages are largely econ, again.

SS? Okay, but if the CA throws enough scanning frigates etcetra out there, you're still going to get found, and SS's other difficulties have been gone over more than enough times.

AR? Please don't make me laugh.
HE? HE has problems.
WM? Well, you have a slight gain to make up for your disadvantages, and dreadnaughts are nasty, but that's still not a huge multiplier.

PP? Has flaws, ALA SS's, plus you'll run out of minerals too quickly to dent his economy severely, since packets are horribly ineffective at killing, and your terraforming advantages don't exist against him.


And then you come to good designs, chaff, and so on and so on.
All of which, of course, the CA can replicate.

CA is *not* balanced.
CA versus a single non-CA, with two players of equal skill, the CA will win, and will win handily.

In real games, it's somewhat messier, because of differing skill levels, and the fact that CA tends to provoke a very severe "Dogpile the monster" mentality.

Beating a CA whose player is not as good as you is doable, although far harder than beating them were they using a non-CA PRT would be.

But CA is easily the most powerful PRT, by and large.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Quote:


HE? HE has problems.



What problems?

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
What problems
- No gates
- 1/2 value for each planet compared to other races.
- No gates
- Did I mention No gates Rolling Eyes



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sinla is currently offline Sinla

 
Warrant Officer

Messages: 132
Registered: February 2003
Location: the Netherlands
And why does everybody forgets to add: they have no gates Very Happy
But weren't we talking about CA's here? Angel

<back-to-lurk-mode>



If you can't beat me... Run away...

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icon5.gif  Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
Somewhy I get the impression that CA's are not played or played rarely in duels...

Is that a correct impression?



In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Quote:

What problems?
- No gates
- 1/2 value for each planet compared to other races.
- No gates
- Did I mention No gates Rolling Eyes


No gates is definitely a inconvenience, but not insurmountable. HE's, if played well, will usually have enough metal and econ to field a bigger fleet, or 2 separate fleets (CA's *not* included, as they overpower every race).

As to the 1/2 value for each planet claim... The HE's I play get about 2500 resources for each maxed out planet. They are also tri-immune, so can do this on *every* planet. You are claiming that other races, other than a CA can do that? I think not.

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 17:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Orca

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ...
iztok wrote on Wed, 24 December 2003 18:34

Hi!
There was a discussion on RGCS about race balancing. You can search for "Stars handicap!". Each PRT has to leave unused
amount of RW points like:
AR 50
SS/PP 100
WM/HE 125
SD 137
IT/IS 150
JOAT 175
CA 200
Those settings were used in some games, but I found only one topic about results (blitz game, very balanced and very long-lasting for a blitz).
BR, Iztok


I just noticed this (2 weeks late, and a dollar short) - note that those settings were used under blitz settings and are probably best for tiny to small universes. They'd probably have to be rebalanced for larger universes, and in any case are somewhat rough estimates. They also inflict a fair bit of pain on race designing, but that's what they're meant to do. Smile



Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Of course...just like in a regular game, No one is impressed when you tell them you won a duel with CA.

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icon3.gif  Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
Hmm Confused

I've got a new Idea about haw to balance CA's in a larger game:

Can't take IFE, ISB
Must take Prop, Con and Weapons Expensive

I think THAT should balance 'em in line...
Any opinions?



In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

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Re: CA Balance Tue, 06 January 2004 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
I have an idea. Why don't you test ideas before posting them?

Hmm, I should take my own advice and stop posting replies...



- LEit

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