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icon5.gif  Is HP IT possible? Sun, 09 November 2003 03:34 Go to next message
Hatterson is currently offline Hatterson

 
Warrant Officer
Past Weekly Puzzle Master

Messages: 121
Registered: May 2003
Location: NY, USA


Can an HP IT be pulled off?[ 46 votes ]
1. Yes 33 / 72%
2. No 3 / 7%
3. Only by a very skilled person 10 / 22%

I am currently trying to get a good model together for an HP IT. I know that in the late game this would be an amazing race because of the sheer number of resources and the ability to move the ships that those resources would create anywhere instantly, but I have been having trouble getting a design that will survive until this point. I have been having difficulty getting planets off of the ground due to the low initial output of colonies.

Does anyone have any input on this....or do you even believe that an HP IT is a plausible race?



"Don't be so humble - you are not that great. " - Golda Meir (1898-1978) to a visiting diplomat

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Sun, 09 November 2003 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 583
Registered: November 2002
Location: Where the clowns can't re...

I'm actually currently working on a HP IT race... it's why I came on the forum this morning. I've got a few questions to ask - and they're at the bottom of the post...

Basically my aim for the race was...

a) to push out around 3k of resources on a perfect planet.

b) Not to take ORBM

c) To take UR

d) to have as wide hab as possible at 17% growth.


So here goes....

IT
UR, RS

0.52g to 2.48g
-92c to 108c
rad immune
17% growth
1/3 hab

1/2500
14/8/20
10/3/10

all tech expensive, start at 3 box checked.


Righty... reasons for my choices...

Rad immune: better planet distribution since my hab is central on other bars. Gives plenty of greens.

UR: mostly to help build a stargate on new colonised worlds. By using privateers to colonise in crash and burn style - you can can split the fleet at the last minute and scrap everything after you take the world. This basically gives a lovely resource injection, enough to get a gate built quick. It also has huge advantages in the end game - which is what this entire race is designed for : END GAME.

I didn't take ARM for obvious reasons (listed on another post) and I didn't take ORBM because I wanted mining robots rather than relying on planets.

The resources were as good as I could get really. I wanted to build less factories and have a higher output from them. These settings dropped me just over the 3k mark. I could probably lower the number of factories and still get my 3k target (19 factories would keep me over, 18 just under).

The planetary mineral settings are cheap and basic. My default queue is...

1020 factories
1020 mines

Basically I'm trying to build as many factories as possible. Early on in the 2 test beds I've run so far, mines were built as required - but once a reasonably sized mining operation was in place freighters were stargating here there and everywhere.

The big problem I can see this race having is getting to the end game based firstly on the really crappy technology settings and secondly that it's
...

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Sun, 09 November 2003 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
It should be doable, IT is a bit more expensive in RW points, but it's a solid economic race. And moving the G around for those factories should be easier.

However, IT are designed to be fast, giving them a slow economic model is probably counter-productive. The other thing I like about IT is that building a fort with a inf/300 on it is expensive enough that you want 1/1000 to be able to do it without building factories first. If you can pop up a gate during an invasion, you can very quickly reinforce the area. The only problem with this is packets...



- LEit

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Sun, 09 November 2003 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hatterson is currently offline Hatterson

 
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Past Weekly Puzzle Master

Messages: 121
Registered: May 2003
Location: NY, USA

I haven't test beded this race as I just designed it (it is a mod of a previous race that was fairly successful though). Any here it is:

IT (obviously)

OBRM, IFE, NRSE (I am torn about the IFE/NRSE choice becase of teh inherent advantage of using gates to do your travel, but as this is a prelim race, I have decided to put it on for now)

.31 to 3.2
-120 to 120
13 to 75
turns out to be 1 in 4
17%

1/2500 (another obvious here with an HP)
14/9/20 checked
10/3/15

Weap, Con cheap
Prop, En, Elect normal
Bio Expensive

I think that with some work this could be a good race (output almost 3500 on a 100% world).

Any comments and/or questions are welcome.



"Don't be so humble - you are not that great. " - Golda Meir (1898-1978) to a visiting diplomat

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Sun, 09 November 2003 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sinla is currently offline Sinla

 
Warrant Officer

Messages: 132
Registered: February 2003
Location: the Netherlands
Hatterson wrote on Sun, 09 November 2003 19:30

14/9/20 checked



It will take a *long* time for you to get out the gates with facs costing 9... You should really try to get this to 8 IMHO. Maybe lower the tech somewhat?

An IT-race I tried (pretty successfully) had 15-8-21, with 10-3-15 mines. One 100% world (I had an immunity, I choose lesser worlds that were bigger... Not a recommendation for HP btw, but I had 10 100%worlds in 2489 Smile ) yields a whopping 3905 resources, yeehaw!

When playing with HP's it occurred to me that 21 facs operated is another sort of breakpoint btw. With the race mentioned above the steps up to 21 operated costed me around 30 RWP's each, the step to 22 costed me 43.

my 2 cents



If you can't beat me... Run away...

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 10 November 2003 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1190
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
EVERY HP race is possible, the main question is if it is survivable. Wink

I'm just playing an HP IS race, and I can tell you that the main problem with it are minerals. An HP uses quite more germ than a HG race, and those high tech AMP CPS nubs eat it even more. If I wouldn't have been lucky to get an Alien Miner from the very first MT that arrived (and immediately built remotes of 3x4000 mines), and a neighbour player wouldn't have dropped, I wouldn't have been in the first place in that game. With high res output (almost 4k from 100% planet) I'd burn all my germ long ago.

When I've been designing my race, I decided to go with OBRM. Now I know it's not appropriated for HPs. OTOH, if not chosen, my planets would have the res output of a 12/9/16 OBRM HG race. Compared to that race, all what I'd get from being a 15/8/21 HP would be about 50 RW points and ability to remote-mine, but with much slower start.

To resume: no more HP races for me. I'll probably try a -f next.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Mon, 10 November 2003 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
EVERY HP race is possible, the main question is if it is survivable.

The HP's that are the best survivors are usually the ones with a 14+ mine eff with the Germ box checked. Obviously, the higher the better...

This is why a 4% HE is so nasty if you can get it to survive to the late game. At 20+ mine eff, you can devote you entire econ to shipbuilding and not run out of metal for years.

The flipside to this is the +17% HP, 1 in 10-ish single immune. To get proper performance, they sacrifice metal. Using your advantage of early game tech through superior resources means sheer #'s of ships isn't as big a deal. Just the fact that you have a decent fleet, that is higher in tech, usually can get you by. However, if you can't get more minerals by conquest or remote mining, you end up dead quick. You are also more susceptable to random starting planet values.

I usually opt for HG races with a 1 in 4-8 and good factory ramp potential. Bop the min eff as high as I can tolerate, usually 11-12 eff. Getting more planets means more minerals, with less germ dependancy. Makes for a better overall race design, IMO.

-Matt




Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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HPs and ITs Tue, 18 November 2003 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cirrus is currently offline Cirrus

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 6
Registered: November 2003
Aghh! What do half of these crazy letters stand for. It seems that no-one uses their full form so I don't have a clue what a person is talking about.

Someone please help!?!

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Re: HPs and ITs Tue, 18 November 2003 03:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand

Almost all the abbreviations you'll every come across are listed at Stars! FAQ here 4.1 - What are all those abbreviations
I thoroughly recommend reading everything else on that site too Smile

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Tue, 17 February 2004 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goober is currently offline goober

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 175
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Location: +10
Multiple testbeds get this one 25k by 2450 which was my target when I designed it.

NRSE, OBRM & NAS

18% PGR

Grav 0.86-5.60; Temp Immune; Rad 10-50r

1/5 habs. 1/4 with immediate 7% grav terraforimg. 1/3 with 7% rad terraforming.

(Habs may seem unnessarily wide but it gives you a better choice of your 4th hab factor: germanium)

1/2500
15/7/17 g checked.
10/3/17

Weap cheap. Rest expensive. Start at 3 checked.

50 RW points leftover spent on factories to kickstart your economy.

CE gets you more points but it's a pain.

Possibly viable. But I found it too much like hard work during my testbeds. I couldn't bring myself to put it into the field.

Goober.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Wed, 18 February 2004 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sinla is currently offline Sinla

 
Warrant Officer

Messages: 132
Registered: February 2003
Location: the Netherlands
Uhm... ouch.
Standard HG w/o OBRM has about the same resources, with OBRM they'll do much better...
Your habs are pretty good, but your tech sucks and you will *never* make it up with this econ.
(Maybe take cons cheap and then trade your butt off... Grin ).
I would forget about facs costing seven (truly pretty expensive) and have more facs operated...
Then you can even get better tech...
Maybe you should go with no immunity, you don't get resources from people, but from factories!

Grant you this, getting a HP to 25k is pretty OK. Normally this mark doesn't apply to HP's, cause there strength will show a few decades later most of the time.
Hang in till the 70's is my advice for people playing an HP Wink
And get a huge uni ofc Wink My HP IT got 12k in 2450 in a real game. It was *no* AccBBS and huge. 2470: 59k with 78 techlevels.
2485: 109k with 114 techlevels (weap, cons maxed out).

And then it is time to look for Germ Wink

my 2 cents



If you can't beat me... Run away...

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Wed, 18 February 2004 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goober is currently offline goober

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 175
Registered: December 2003
Location: +10
No arguments with your reasoning Sinla.

As I said never played it in a real game.

My first IT was actually a Hybrid. 1/1500 and something like 13/8/16 g checked 10/3/16 with weap & con cheap as I remember. That got me 1/4 habs with offset narrow rad.

Played quite well. Better long term res than a HG and not as slow as an HP to get gates up on a new world. 100% world gets 3k compared to a HG 2.8k and you have more planets to choose from than a standard 1/7 HG IIRC. Made it a lot easier to play in my early days.

With 13/8/18 factory settings you get 3.6k for a 100% world but habs reduce to about 1/6 or you give up con cheap.

Personally, I think I'd go for a hybrid again rather than an HP

Goober.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1190
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Quote:

Personally, I think I'd go for a hybrid again rather than an HP

Don't. There are only two good settings for pop eff: 1/1000 and 1/2500. With your setting 1/1500 you get about 200 RW points, but pop gives only 66% resources. If you'd drop eff down to 1/2500 you'd get 40% resources for additional 400 RW points.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 02:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goober is currently offline goober

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 175
Registered: December 2003
Location: +10
Yep, no doubt about it you gain 1k per 100% planet of res if you spend those extra 400 RW points on factories e.g. 15/8/22 and mines 10/3/22

Instead of those 400 RW points the hybrid offers a quicker start and, for me anyway, easier play. If your min/maxing there is no contest: HP beats the hybrid long term. But doesn't the Hybrid beat the HG long term? So I guess for me it's more about what compromises I'm prepared to make to suit my style of gameplay.

Goober.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 03:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1190
Registered: April 2003
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Hi!
goober wrote on Thu, 19 February 2004 08:19

Instead of those 400 RW points the hybrid offers a quicker start and, for me anyway, easier play. If your min/maxing there is no contest: HP beats the hybrid long term. But doesn't the Hybrid beat the HG long term?

No. From a 100% planet you get 8% (176 res) more from factories, but you lose 33% (266 res) from pop. Besides, pop is free and its resources come into play when ramping up EVERY planet. Your race would lag 1-2 turns on every planet, if compared to a standard HG race. Well, your race still has 70 RW points to spend. If you'd increase fac eff to 14 you'd get almost the same speed and output as a HG.

Quote:

So I guess for me it's more about what compromises I'm prepared to make to suit my style of gameplay.

Sure. But you have to consider the game settings also. In a high-competitive universe your hybrid would do worse then a HG. In long term both would do the same. So, I'd still opt for a HG because it's more able to defend itself if an early attacker would try to do something.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 06:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 514
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How about this ?

IT
NRSE, OBRM
1.64-7.04g, temp immune, 4-74MR (1 in 4)
16% PGR
1 per 2500
15/7/21 fact
g box checked
10/3/16 mine
wpns cheap, rest expensive, not start at 3

27K by 2450 fairly easily in a large/normal with 15 AIs.

Resources never dropped below 63% of those from my HG design during those first 50 turns, overtook it in 2458 - and I basically stopped playing after 2440 apart from a bit of G shipping.

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1190
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Hi!
staz69uk wrote on Thu, 19 February 2004 12:26

How about this ?
IT
NRSE, OBRM
1 per 2500
15/7/21 fact g box checked
10/3/16 mine


Bad: never ending germ crunch.
In the only game where I played a HP race (OBRM IS 15/8/21g 10/3/21) I've been constantly in germ shortage, despite I got an Alien Miner from the first MT that arrived (and built 3*4000 mines fleets). In the late game I canceled factory building on all new planets (but first 300-400), just to save germ. 've had AMP CPS tech-20-RAM nubians first (and for the long time the only) in that game, BUT boy those ships costed about 150/150/230 of minerals when I built the first, and I was short of germ the whole game! If there wouldn't be an AR ally that has given me quite some germ when I started building those nubs I'd built only about 1200 ('ve had iron and bora for 4000).
A lesson I learned: NO OBRM for HP, and (if possible) mines eff better then 1.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 09:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 514
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iztok wrote on Thu, 19 February 2004 12:15


Bad: never ending germ crunch.
In the only game where I played a HP race (OBRM IS 15/8/21g 10/3/21) I've been constantly in germ shortage, despite I got an Alien Miner from the first MT that arrived (and built 3*4000 mines fleets). In the late game I canceled factory building on all new planets (but first 300-400), just to save germ. 've had AMP CPS tech-20-RAM nubians first (and for the long time the only) in that game, BUT boy those ships costed about 150/150/230 of minerals when I built the first, and I was short of germ the whole game! If there wouldn't be an AR ally that has given me quite some germ when I started building those nubs I'd built only about 1200 ('ve had iron and bora for 4000).
A lesson I learned: NO OBRM for HP, and (if possible) mines eff better then 1.
BR, Iztok


Losing OBRM costs me 25% of my economy (10% from lower pop, and the rest from reduced factory settings). If I do that then I may as well use my HG race.

I could reduce the hab range instead, but that defeats the whole idea of this race.

Without remote mining I can still drop colonists on the reds and build normal mines. Besides which, with the high & narrow gravity range I am expecting to inter-settle like mad so there wouldn't be many places for me to remote mine anyway.

I understand what you are saying about mineral crunch, but how much should I let it dictate my race design ?

Has anyone else made an OBRM HP work ?

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1190
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
staz69uk wrote on Thu, 19 February 2004 15:56

Losing OBRM costs me 25% of my economy (10% from lower pop, and the rest from reduced factory settings). If I do that then I may as well use my HG race.

IMO that's the reason why HPs are played so rarely. They got
- only 10% more economy,
- remote miners and
- 60 points to spend,
but
- start much slower,
- are very vulnerable until the mid-game and
- require more MM for sending germ and picking minerals from remotes.

Quote:

I understand what you are saying about mineral crunch, but how much should I let it dictate my race design ?

They are not a big factor in short game, they are everything at 2550. And HPs aim for long games.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Thu, 19 February 2004 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icebird is currently offline icebird

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 178
Registered: September 2003
Location: In LaLa land...
Just my thoughts.
IT
IFE, TT, NRSE, OBRM, NAS <= Yes, there are 5- one could drop TT, but I love it for all races (I never can get those HGs to work Rolling Eyes )
.55 to 1.8, -80 to 80, 30-70 <= This gives about 1 in 13 inital hab, with TT 5% it goes up to 1 in 6
15% PGR <= On the low end, but sacrafices have to come from somewhere
1/2500
15/8/25 fact, box checked
12/3/17 mines <= Will eventualy give more minerals per planet, virtual mine cost reduced to 2.5
Energy, Bio, Elect expensive, Wpns cheap, Con and Prop normal, start at 3 box checked

I am obsessed with HPs using TT- The endgame gets a lot stronger (as if they need it...), and ramping up yellows is easier. I just couldn't find points to afford Bio as normal Wall Bash



-Peter, Lord of the Big Furry Things

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Fri, 20 February 2004 02:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1190
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
icebird wrote on Fri, 20 February 2004 00:16

Just my thoughts.
... snip ...
15/8/25 fact, box checked
12/3/17 mines <= Will eventualy give more minerals per planet, virtual mine cost reduced to 2.5

Those mines look good. Will give you 20% more metals, and you'll deplete concentrations slower, thus providing more metal earlier. But do you really need 25 factories? That's A LOT, and uses even more germ: 8250 per 100% planet. I'm affraid only mines will not provide enough germ to ramp all planets. Besides, your race is IT and can afford to gate those heavy remotes everywhere.

Quote:

I just couldn't find points to afford Bio as normal

If you'd drop fac's operated to 22 you'd get points for bio normal and PGR 16%. Then you may even decide to drop start@3 and buy mine eff 13. That would give you more metals and decrease germ demand by 12%. IMO with such settings the race could become playable with OBRM.
BR, Iztok



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Re: Is HP IT possible? Fri, 20 February 2004 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
HP IT is not so uncommon in large games ... i was once in one where 5 from 14 were HP IT-s and 4 of those were in top 5 most of time. How so: "is HP IT possible?" Confused3 Rolling Eyes

Boringly easy to get 25K by 2450 with something as powerful as HP combined with something as powerful as IT. Cool

LRTS:
NRSE yea, HP should take NRSE ... no germ for rams.
TT no, Profit from it kicks in so late in game that phew. Better play AR if you want to play in soooo long game.
OBRM maybe, ... Dropping it is an option ... but it costs.
ISB maybe, take ISB if you know what youre doing (can expand almost as quick as HG IT).
Rest are like usual... matter of taste.

Hab and growth:
Decent (about 1 in 4) hab and decent (about 17-19%) growth. If you are early weak it does not mean you must be cheapo to pop-drop? Surprised
No immunities. Immunity takers say "its good to have few good worlds instead of lot of small ones". Its BS for HP. IT HP with OBRM can maintain 1K econ on ~26% world... not so "small planets" anymore? HP needs germ for lot of factories. So immunity turns into "have few worlds with 4K econ but no germanium". Confused

Econ:
1/2500 (do not hybride here)
15/7/21 germ box checked (again better do not mess with it)
If you do not care if you get 25K by 2450 in game take factory cost 8, but that depends on your style and strategy.

Better mines than usual. Like 11/3/22. HP econ needs minerals. Dropping OBRM is an option too but it costs. IT can gate iron. Worried? drop 1-3 factories operated if no other ways to get points and take even better mines or take almost 1 in 3 hab and live almost everywhere.

Tech:
HP should not take too cheap tech. Pick weapons + something cheap, rest expensive. Or pick 2 fields (one of whose is weapons) normal and one field cheap. For example weapons/electronics normal, propulsion cheap maybe just weapons and propulsion cheap. My choise may seem weird but in reality most have construction + weapons cheap and nothing to trade. Wink

Oh thats it. Cheers
...

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Wed, 13 July 2005 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 200
Registered: June 2005
How about starting this thread back up? I have to dissagree with you on the immunity. It's true that germanium is a problem, but if you can get miners out to your planets, or just get a gate up once you have miners near your homeworld or other main planets, you can transport germanium rather quickly. And with 20 big planets instead of 50 little ones, you dont have to supply as much germanium. And as the game progresses, and your worlds grow and finish producing factories, they then become potential exporters of germanium, along with being a sturdy outer base.


If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
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Re: Is HP IT possible? Wed, 13 July 2005 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

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Well, maybe we could get back to freakyboy's hopes for a HP IT, since it was the first one in this thread.

Quote:


Basically my aim for the race was...

a) to push out around 3k of resources on a perfect planet.

b) Not to take ORBM

c) To take UR

d) to have as wide hab as possible at 17% growth.


So here goes....

IT
UR, RS

0.52g to 2.48g
-92c to 108c
rad immune
17% growth
1/3 hab

1/2500
14/8/20
10/3/10

all tech expensive, start at 3 box checked.



My thoughts: take CE (IT isn't hurt so much as other races and 17% growth doesn't need to move so much as 19% either). NAS also isn't such a disadvantage, especially with IT gate-scans. Maybe also narrow gravity (you start with 7 points of terraforming anyways) and check G box or get better tech. With CE you start with prop 6, and you are rad immune so you have a solid movement strategy in the prop 6 ramscoop.

By adding CE and NAS and narrowing the gravity four clicks and shifting it to the right four clicks (0.62g - 2.48g, hab is reduced to 1/4 which still isn't so bad) you can get cheap weapons and normal construction, or, if you prefer, cheap weapons and 17 mines operated. This sounds better to me.

... or am I just making a fool out of myself Silly hair ?

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Re: Is HP IT possible? Wed, 13 July 2005 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 200
Registered: June 2005
I agree with you about the CE and the NAS. The thing I would add is NRSE, and IFE. That makes all your ships start with an alpha drive, and the loss of ram scoops is compensated by the gates and the IT's antimatter generater.

The race I made takes advantage of this:

Dethdukks
IT
IFE, NRSE, CE, ARM, NAS

0.89 - 4.40
-12 - 140
IMMUNE
18% growth
1/5 habitable

1/2500
15/7/24 check
10/3/10

all expensive, start at 3 checked


This race grows quickly because of the 18% growth, and the cost 7 factories. It also expands quickly because is starts with the ability to travel at warp 8 for a great number of turns. Any suggestions on how to change it?



If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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