Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Remote Mining with Vengance.
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Fri, 01 August 2003 20:33 |
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alexdstewart wrote on Fri, 01 August 2003 17:28 |
# HW' do not get their mineral concentration below 30. This means that you can depopulate your WH and build as many remote miners over it as your heart desires. This way you get an inexhaustable mineral supply while the rest of universe that took OBRM struggles to squize last few stones from rocks at min consentration of 10.
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That only applies while the homeworld is POPULATED, so only AR races can take advantage of this.
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Sat, 02 August 2003 20:23 |
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Hatterson | | | Messages: 121
Registered: May 2003 Location: NY, USA |
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I have said this before, but I will say it again. I love to remote mine, but I do not feel the ARM is worth taking because, as you said it takes 56 points and it also means that you don't get the extra points from taking OBRM (not to mention the added planet population). The only time I can afford to remote mine is when the MT gives me the alien miner. With OBRM you can make gateable ships that can pull a good amount of minerals off of those pesky red planets.
As LEit said you have the wrong numbers for mining concentration. Here is what they actually are.
12,500 / current_concentration = #_years_to_deplete_1_%
Remember that in current versions of Stars! you can pull an unlimited amount of minerals from a planet. Your planet never runs dry as it did in previous versions, but that is beside the point.
Back to the ARM/OBRM discussion. To me ARM slows you down too much at the beginning of the game. Keep in mind that in order to get your minning fleets going you must first invest in the minning ships, which can take a very long time. Personally I would rather spend my minerals and resources on war ships until (if) I get the Alien miner. Then I would build very cheap fleets in a matter of a few years and be pulling minerals just as fast as anyone. I think, in fact, that your minerals per resources spent building mining ships is better than an ARM race but I am not sure. I will check on that and post it sometime.
"Don't be so humble - you are not that great. " - Golda Meir (1898-1978) to a visiting diplomatReport message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Sat, 02 August 2003 22:40 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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The answer for the Populated HW:
Well, I hate it when my plans of world(agham) galaxy domination are foiled! There are however, several ways to remedy this:
#It takes just one, Yes ONE starter colony to make your HW a mineral fountain. There are two ways to go about it:
a)Make friends with AR (You Woos! )
b)Enslave an AR while they are too weak.
#There are always those so called dead planets- planets too inhospitable for anyone to settle in vecinity, planets where figting has been very severe hence no mines, planets that were nuked etc... AND there are planets that were struck by comets(awh). Now concentration on those planets is high enough for high tech ARM miners to pay off very quickly. If you are an OBRM race a comet that struck you is not welcome, a comet that missed you is useless since you'll not be able to suck minerals out of it quickly. On other hand if you have a miner fleet on standby it just takes 3-5 turns to get to that juicy planet and 10 turns to suck it dry so that not even Greenpeace would want it. More diplomatically important, you don't even have to CONTROL that planet!
#From the creators of alien miner you get the nifty toy called THE GENESIS DEVICE. 5000 res is a bugger but an HP will have 50+100*1.5=200 res on a red world. That be near 25 turns before it is ready, not good, but wait who said you couldn't overcrowd?
That be near 360 res per red world i. e. 15 turns this is playable. Since now the genesis device does not destroy facilities you could have 15000 minerals per 25 yrs (10 to suck it dry). Now an HP absolutely needs ARM since it needs 7500 germ to build all the factories, so you can either inc efficiency of the mines or take ARM and decreace you mine no. and you'll suck the other planets.
Wait there is more to come...
In the Future there is only WAR...
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Sat, 02 August 2003 23:54 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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On Alien miner vs Ultra miner:
alien miner and ulatra miner are fairly even. In res/mine capability they are identical. Alien miner consts more iron and Germ though.
You get alien miner at con 10 and ultra at con 15 so alien miner is 20% discounted. BUT there is the cost of of the miner hull and the fact that each alien miner is = to 10 mines.
OBRM's must slap 2 aliens on a miniminer, which at the time when you get the alien is 82% the cost of the aliens! Add the the engine, and whatever you put in the mech cost and you get to the stage when 10 super miners on maxi miner hull are more cost effective! So the only advantage that OBRM race with the alien over the race that didn't take OBRM is the gatability of the miner ships. But then again, if someone has the alien miner, the chances are that many people will get it and so even that advantage is evaporated. As for an ARM race: ultra miners on ultra hulls weight about 1200 kt just 4 times the 300 kt, com'on people KNOW you've been gating something of simular weight.
An ARM race still has some advantages over the non OBRM race with alien miners. The cost of the hulls is one of the things but minituarization plays an even greater role. An alient miner requires advancement in Energy, Con, Electronics AND BIO!
So to get that 20% minituarization bonus I talked before, you'll NEED bio tech 10. Most people wouldn't advance higher than bio 7 if they had the choice.
And there you go Ultra Miner Beats the Alien miner on all accounts OBRM or no OBRM.
QED
In the Future there is only WAR...
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Sun, 03 August 2003 00:10 |
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The main advantage of advanced remote mining (IMHO) is gateable midget miners.. especially if you dare take cheap engines, they get really fun. If you're IT, taking ARM is pointless.
For an HP it's worth considering skipping OBRM and remote mining if you don't mind the MM.
For HG's, I wouldn't recommend using remote mining.
Perhaps in FreeStars! things will be different.
[Updated on: Sun, 03 August 2003 00:12] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Sun, 03 August 2003 00:45 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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With the compounding effect, in general, early growth counts more then late growth, so more points and room to grow fast vs something that only helps later - to me the choice is clear - take OBRM unless you really have a good reason not to.
Neighter OBRM nor ARM help or hinder your grawth rate. Well, you do get the extra pts for OBRM that you can put to use somewhereas
But ARM allows you to do the same much better, especially for an HP:
You can get you mine settings to about 8-5 per 10000 pop, and dec you eff if you are an HP. Now all that combined ARM actually GIVES you the points often more than OBRM does.
It probably comes down to when you want to do your fighting and how much time you want to spend MMing the remote mining.
Just HOW HARD is it to get to Elec 4 and Con 7? If you start reaseaching electronics early, You will find that getting to elec4 is not hard at all (plus you get all of those nifty scanners early), Con is a popular field to reseach and getting to con 7 is not hard at all. Now, when you have the requirements for a dicent miner, you'll be able to build remote miners at roughly 7res/mine. I know this SUCKs BUT think about it:
How many times you saw a juicy high min con planet with all the minerals at near 100 some measly 100ly away? Ok not that rare, but how many times that aforementioned planet was habbitable? That's right 4 or more times rarer. With this in mind will you pay the 2.3 price multiplier that comes with the remote miner?
(This is the part where you nod your head in agreement espesially if your mines cost 4-5 not 3 res)
Next in line comes the Ultra miner. With this babe you can build remote mines at about 2 res/mine. Oh Yaeh Baby!
What do I owe you? "con15 and elec 8, Honey..."
I could get that by Early Mid Game I recon. And suddenly you have the ability to build mines 25% cheaper than your opponents anywhere at the time when it most counts - in the mid game. And besides you get all those extra pts from worsening your mine settings, the pts that you can put to a good use in your economy, i. e. you'd be just as fearsome as an OBRM monster next door but with cheaper effective mines. And the best of it is that the ultra miner gets cheaper and cheaper...
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Sun, 03 August 2003 01:24 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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How do you people get those nifty white quote backgrounds again?
Quote:
"The main advantage of advanced remote mining (IMHO) is gateable midget miners.. especially if you dare take cheap engines, they get really fun. If you're IT, taking ARM is pointless.
For an HP it's worth considering skipping OBRM and remote mining if you don't mind the MM.
For HG's, I wouldn't recommend using remote mining."
Super Miner Gives you 4res/mine at best when you get it- 33% more than a standart mine! Ultra gives you 2res/mine. Go figure
The stars! is already contest between who MM more, no change there. But for RM, What MM? How hard is it to route the Miners on to a worlds, place some guards and troops, do simple loop orders for transport and forget about it forever after?
By the way I LOVE cheap engines,(I also love LSP,NAS,UR,MA but thats beside the point). If you are a SD you would want those miner hulls to be durable and able to withstand more standart mine field detonations than your opponents can
As I already have argued even HG races can benifit from ARM.
Quote:
"By the way, why did you start a seperate poll and not just reply to the existing one? You had the same options so it appears you'd seen that one. "
As the luck would have it, I had!
But the poll was then and it is now. I just wondered how many people I can convert in MonsterPlanet Suckers
Quote:
"In most games you will intersettle with some one, reducing the available planets for remote mining."
I have taken this into account. 1 in 4 seems to be the upper limit of a compettitive race. So that leaves the other 3 for the remote mining. 1 in 2 of them would have min con below average, these you will give to your "friends". More mineral rich planets are encountered when there are extrimes of temp, rad or grav. Assuming that the bonus you get from them is about 33%, 1.5 of the remaining planet*1.34= 2 plnaets worth of minerals.
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Mon, 04 August 2003 21:08 |
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"Mineless" races have been tried and found unplayable. You need at least basic mines on your planets to be able to build RM ships in the first place.
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Tue, 05 August 2003 07:08 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1205
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
alexdstewart wrote on Tue, 05 August 2003 03:51 | So I am joining the first game that comes next from the 'List"
and I am going to kick some major a$$!
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I'd strongly recommend you to do a 100 BB benchmark testbed, before you put your race in a PBEM game. Can save you a lot of frustration.
100 BB benchmark testbed
Universe is small packed, MAX minerals, AccBBS, NO random events, only your race. You stop colonizing after about turn 35 and stop most MM after 40. The goal is to build 100 BBs (20 ARM missiles, 8 Bear shields, 6 Organic armors, 3 Battle Super Computers, 3 Jammers 20s, TGD-9 engines and an Overthruster) as soon as possible.
Since you love numbers here's the scale to measure your result:
turn result
---------------+---------------
before 50 .. extreme (doable with CA)
50-55 . . . . excellent (doable with econ races or luck)
55-60 . . . . very good
60-65 . . . . good
65-70 . . . . average
above 70 .. redesign race/learn more of Stars!/avoid intermediate and higher levels of games.
BR, Iztok
BTW you get that "nifty quote" by clicking "quote" instead of "reply".
[Updated on: Tue, 05 August 2003 07:16] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 00:13 |
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AHA. If you'd have mentioned the rest of the race design it would have made more sense. If you can live on 1 in 3 planets your mineral output from them will be considerably more.
The only problem I can see is that your resource curve will have peaked long before your mineral curve kicks in.
I am going to testbed a PP variant of this and see just how well it works.
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