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Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Guts of Defense building? (Determining how many defenses a planet can build)
Guts of Defense building? Mon, 12 October 2020 14:40 Go to next message
Raindancer is currently offline Raindancer

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

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Scenario: A player dropped out. There is a planet belonging to that player in my space that I would like to capture with mines and factories fully intact. I am not IS. I do not have huge stockpiles of minerals for throwing multiple 10k packets.

Supposition: that a combination of smart bombs, with packets when the defense percentages fall, and pop bombs when defense percentages are low, is a reasonably efficient way to take the planet. I am not saying this is fast.

In order to do this, it is easier if I can calculate what the defense percentages will be when the (approximate) pop of a planet falls. I.e. If a planet has 100 defenses, and the pop after bombing is 200k, what percentage of the defenses will still operate?

In old writings it is said that less defenses can be operated when then population of a planet falls below 250k. (I was just suggested to me that) This number may however be 25% of the total pop. So the numbers will change for OBRM, HE and Joat.

But I am still missing part of the equation. I have planets that I am terraforming myself, and the number of defenses that I can build is not a linear factor of total pop. There is at least one other factor.

Does anyone know the formula for determining how many defenses can be built on a planet?

RainDancer

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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 02:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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The formula I've heard is 1 defence per 2500 people linear (so 200k would operate 80 defences). The trick is that like mines and factories, the amount of pop operating installations is capped by the planetary maxpop (equal to %hab*HW cap for greens above 5%, or 5% of HW cap for anything else).

If that's not accurate then I don't know.

(This is why Orbital Adjusters are useful for aiding bombing; by lowering the habitability of a planet the maxpop falls and if it goes under 250k some of the defences will become inoperable.)


[Updated on: Tue, 13 October 2020 02:51]

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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 03:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ricks03 is currently offline ricks03

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

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It should be 1 defense for each 2500, with the pop cap as the max who _can_ work defenses (and uninhabitable will be 50k IIRC)

A reminder that if you kill off 100% of the population, all the factories and mines will go away, so you'll have to invade that same turn. Order of events will then become important. If you're planning bombing, packets, and pop drop, you'll want the pop drop to be a waypoint 1 order. Packets will hit, them bombing, then WP1 pop drop. If you want to gain tech, there will still need to be a few survivors to ... assist ... with your tech gain as well.

also worth nothing that multiple packets might be more effective at wiping the defenses out, as each packet will destroy defenses which won't be there for later packets.



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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 03:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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ricks03 wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 18:17
A reminder that if you kill off 100% of the population, all the factories and mines will go away, so you'll have to invade that same turn.

Never heard this myself. Packets destroy defences, and a world reduced to 0 loses defences/planetary scanner/techsteal possibility, but I've not heard of factories or mines going away from planet-killer packets. Will check.

EDIT: Mines and factories persist on uninhabited worlds. Defences go away. I have now tested this personally.


[Updated on: Tue, 13 October 2020 03:41]

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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 03:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ricks03 is currently offline ricks03

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 03:32
ricks03 wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 18:17
A reminder that if you kill off 100% of the population, all the factories and mines will go away, so you'll have to invade that same turn.

Never heard this myself. Packets destroy defences, and a world reduced to 0 loses defences/planetary scanner/techsteal possibility, but I've not heard of factories or mines going away from planet-killer packets. Will check.
It's not the packet that destroys the factories. It's the going to 0. Once it's at 0 and you have to recolonize, the factories/mines will be 0. So you have to get troops on the ground the same turn if the pop goes to 0.



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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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ricks03 wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 18:43
magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 03:32
ricks03 wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 18:17
A reminder that if you kill off 100% of the population, all the factories and mines will go away, so you'll have to invade that same turn.

Never heard this myself. Packets destroy defences, and a world reduced to 0 loses defences/planetary scanner/techsteal possibility, but I've not heard of factories or mines going away from planet-killer packets. Will check.
It's not the packet that destroys the factories. It's the going to 0. Once it's at 0 and you have to recolonize, the factories/mines will be 0. So you have to get troops on the ground the same turn if the pop goes to 0.

And I'm telling you that planets at 0 pop do not lose mines and factories. I left a planet uninhabited for a turn and recolonised and they were all still there.

Defences, the planetary scanner and the invasion techsteal possibility go away when a planet is at 0. Mines and factories do not. I specifically just tested this for mines, factories and defences; you are not going to be able to convince me otherwise.

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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raindancer is currently offline Raindancer

 
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Back to the point of the post.
Some examples from my current game. Joat and OBRM, so roughly 1 defense per 3300 pop.
24/86 planet with 316k pop can build 96 defenses.
36/82 planet with 204k pop can build 82 defenses.
37/55 planet with 196K pop can build 75 defenses.
16/69 planet with 211k pop can build 64 defenses.
So the number of defenses that can be built is related to pop, but not linear. There is at least one other factor here.
An assumption here is that the number of defenses that can be built is the same as the number that are effective when pop has been reduced on a planet.

RainDancer

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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raindancer is currently offline Raindancer

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

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Okay. I did not check the basics.
I have an 83/86 planet, the only planet with 4 empty freighters in orbit.
I took off pop until the defenses started to go down.
Stayed at 100 defenses until I got less then 250k pop. It went down 1 defense with every 2500 pop. Joat and OBRM do not matter.

SO... that probably means that the defenses work at 1/2500, except then the planet is below nn%, my guess would be 50%.

So if I am attacking old planets that have been terraformed, odds are good that the standard formula applies. If I am attacking planets that are smaller (for the person I am attacking, not for me) it is using a more complicated formula, and likely will allow somewhat fewer defenses.

Posey probably has a sheet that will help me determine rough opponent habs and percentage of a planet I am attacking.

EmbarrassedDancer

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Re: Guts of Defense building? Tue, 13 October 2020 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Raindancer wrote on Wed, 14 October 2020 01:09
Back to the point of the post.
Some examples from my current game. Joat and OBRM, so roughly 1 defense per 3300 pop.
24/86 planet with 316k pop can build 96 defenses.
36/82 planet with 204k pop can build 82 defenses.
37/55 planet with 196K pop can build 75 defenses.
16/69 planet with 211k pop can build 64 defenses.
So the number of defenses that can be built is related to pop, but not linear. There is at least one other factor here.
An assumption here is that the number of defenses that can be built is the same as the number that are effective when pop has been reduced on a planet.

RainDancer

Those look like a cap on useful pop for this that doesn't take into account OBRM and PRT. The first and last are capped at 10k per %hab (as for a race with HW maxpop 1M), the middle two are going by 1/2500 of the pop that's there.

Not saying this is necessarily what's going on - I'm not sure what you mean by "can build" - but that's what pops out of that data.

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Re: Guts of Defense building? Wed, 14 October 2020 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ricks03 is currently offline ricks03

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 03:51
ricks03 wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 18:43
magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 03:32
ricks03 wrote on Tue, 13 October 2020 18:17
A reminder that if you kill off 100% of the population, all the factories and mines will go away, so you'll have to invade that same turn.

Never heard this myself. Packets destroy defences, and a world reduced to 0 loses defences/planetary scanner/techsteal possibility, but I've not heard of factories or mines going away from planet-killer packets. Will check.
It's not the packet that destroys the factories. It's the going to 0. Once it's at 0 and you have to recolonize, the factories/mines will be 0. So you have to get troops on the ground the same turn if the pop goes to 0.

And I'm telling you that planets at 0 pop do not lose mines and factories. I left a planet uninhabited for a turn and recolonised and they were all still there.

Defences, the planetary scanner and the invasion techsteal possibility go away when a planet is at 0. Mines and factories do not. I specifically just tested this for mines, factories and defences; you are not going to be able to convince me otherwise.
Tested it myself. I stand corrected.



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Re: Guts of Defense building? Fri, 16 October 2020 01:48 Go to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Oh, there is one thing that you save by popdropping the same turn you bombed/packeted a planet clean, which is the coloniser. You can popdrop at WP1 on the same turn, avoiding a need to recolonise.

(You still don't get to steal tech, though.)

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