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"New" player Wed, 05 December 2018 17:10 Go to next message
Loïc is currently offline Loïc

 
Crewman 3rd Class

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Registered: December 2018
Location: France
Bonjour/Hello everyone.


Before all, thanks to Ron who helps me dealing with the subscription on the forum. And thanks for running Autohost.

Well, I am back from almost a decade without playing a multiplayer game of Star!² but I am willing to start again.
So maybe the next announced game will be for me.

I don't consider myself as an expert, however, I am not a newbie either.

The last multiplayer game I was involeved in was quite impressive, with two years of game (2 or 3 turn a week). Very Happy

At that time, I was playing with French people only. I suppose that my next game will be more international, I don't know if there is still French players around there.

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Loïc Maignan



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Loïc

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Re: "New" player Fri, 07 December 2018 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ron is currently offline Ron

 
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Welcome back to the Stars! Community!


[Updated on: Fri, 07 December 2018 11:09]




Ron Miller
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Re: "New" player Sun, 09 December 2018 05:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loïc is currently offline Loïc

 
Crewman 3rd Class

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Registered: December 2018
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Thanks, I am currently playing in solo to keep in shape... And as soon as an interesting multiplayer game will start, I will join it.


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Re: "New" player Fri, 14 December 2018 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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Loïc wrote on Wed, 05 December 2018 23:10
At that time, I was playing with French people only. I suppose that my next game will be more international, I don't know if there is still French players around there.


Very probably.
As far as I know there used to be quite strong own Stars communities for each French, Russian, Polish, German and the rest of the world (in english), not sure wether there ever was a Spanish speking Stars group. But with a diminishing player base, most aren't very lively anylonger and the still active players had to move a bit closer together. My last ally in a game was from Moscow.

Nevertheless it has been rather slow going with new games lately.

Since I have been thinking about some sets of additional rules lately to allow for new approaches and strategies... perhaps I'll announce a new game mid January.

And... welcome back!

Loïc wrote on Sun, 09 December 2018 11:31
Thanks, I am currently playing in solo to keep in shape...


Now that will become very boring very soon. You might ask for a duel instead.


[Updated on: Fri, 14 December 2018 14:51]

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Re: "New" player Sat, 15 December 2018 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loïc is currently offline Loïc

 
Crewman 3rd Class

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I never played any duel game, but I must admit that what I love in Stars! is the strategic depth and length that allows things to change even when it seem at fist impossible to win.
In a duel game, maybe I will not find this.

Why is there a need to put additional rules, for you ?



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Re: "New" player Sun, 16 December 2018 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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Loïc wrote on Sat, 15 December 2018 17:27

Why is there a need to put additional rules, for you ?


Quite common are additional rules for some PRTs because they are seen as unbalanced (JoaT or CA especially).

A change of general game rules like all have set weapon research to expensive and/or expensive research for all is often done to change the pace of a game, to give it a different flavour, or to give other PRTs a bonus to get them competitive and played... or just to be forced to not only use the usual race design but something else or new.

A game as old as Stars needs different approaches to stay interesting... sometimes we (the hosts) might have even overdone it, so that a vanilla game with just the normal rules is seen as a refreshing "difference" and this, too, is good.

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Re: "New" player Tue, 18 December 2018 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loïc is currently offline Loïc

 
Crewman 3rd Class

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Maybe I was not a so good player, because even playing a Claim Adjuster I didn't have the feeling to have a big advantage on other races ! Jack of all Trades is usually seen as a choice for beginners, right ?

Playing different races is enought see the game with a complete different view, according to me. A War Monger is not played as an Hyper Expansionist. (By the way, who had the courage to play an Hyper Expansionist in a wide multiplayer game ???)

I agree with you on the point that the expansive research for weapons or for all is interesting as it prevent the game for being quickly just a big battle with massive fleets of battleships with shaff.

Fighting with small hulls is fun and allows maybe more creativity. Maybe it would be fun to start a game where battleships and nubians would be forbidden ?

Aaaah, I am creating additional rules too ! Smile

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Loïc




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Re: "New" player Wed, 19 December 2018 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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Loïc wrote on Tue, 18 December 2018 17:46
(By the way, who had the courage to play an Hyper Expansionist in a wide multiplayer game ???)


Most likly that will be ccmaster. He reinvented the HE in such a creative way that often enough the HE is (again) for many games in the list of PRTs to be forbidden or seriously downgraded. His HE is a kind of uberfast developing design, so the exact opposite of the old tri-immune HP most HEs used to be.

Wether is really was wise to play an HE in a rather big universe... well, that might be another matter.

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Re: "New" player Wed, 19 December 2018 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loïc is currently offline Loïc

 
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There is certainly a way to make an Hyper Expansionist a good race to win a game, but my question was : how to deal with the micromanagement related to this kind of race in a huge universe ? In can't imagine dealing with this...

Maybe I should try... Smile



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Loïc

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Re: "New" player Wed, 19 December 2018 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ron is currently offline Ron

 
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Altruist wrote on Wed, 19 December 2018 10:45
Loïc wrote on Tue, 18 December 2018 17:46
(By the way, who had the courage to play an Hyper Expansionist in a wide multiplayer game ???)


Most likly that will be ccmaster. He reinvented the HE in such a creative way that often enough the HE is (again) for many games in the list of PRTs to be forbidden or seriously downgraded. His HE is a kind of uberfast developing design, so the exact opposite of the old tri-immune HP most HEs used to be.

Wether is really was wise to play an HE in a rather big universe... well, that might be another matter.

ccmaster said that the amount of micro-management required to play that HE was insane.



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Re: "New" player Fri, 01 February 2019 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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Hi ,

welcome Loïc on board.

Playing HE in a bigger univers then Medium is a kind of "insane" . If you play with ally for gates it works better.
But you need later in the mid game 4 hours and in the endgame 8 hours per turn (double if no ally with gates ).


ccmaster

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Re: "New" player Fri, 01 February 2019 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loïc is currently offline Loïc

 
Crewman 3rd Class

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I easily understand how long could be the management of an empire that counts hundred planets, with a lot of ships everywhere. Last wide game played, it was approximately two hours to play my turn, and I was not playing Hyper Expansionist !
Maybe this could be an interesting challenge however. If I would not have twho young children, plenty of work to for improving my house and for my collection cars... Rolling Eyes I keep the idea for my retirement, if computers still exist, and if you, Stars! palyer are still alive too !

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Loïc



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Re: "New" player Mon, 11 February 2019 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ricks03 is currently offline ricks03

 
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Getting better at automation helps.


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Re: "New" player Mon, 20 May 2019 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Loïc wrote on Wed, 19 December 2018 03:46
I agree with you on the point that the expansive research for weapons or for all is interesting as it prevent the game for being quickly just a big battle with massive fleets of battleships with shaff.


Eh. Chaff is overrated. Of the five eras of Stars! warfare (pre-cruiser, cruiser, early battleship, late battleship, nubian), there are only two when it's useful (late battleship, where it's indeed very important, and nubian, when it's substantially less so but at least of some use).

A lot of people think chaff is decent in the early BB era. It is not. A battleship with six Jammers 20 absorbs more Juggernaut Missiles than its cost in chaff - ergo, there is no point in building chaff. It's only when Doomsday Missiles appear that chaff becomes relevant, and when Armageddon Missiles appear that it becomes vital. In the nubian era, a beamer nubian does not absorb quite as many missiles/torps as its cost in chaff (due to the massive drop in chaff cost when weap/con are both maxed), but it's close and chaff's vulnerabilities (e.g. not being mineproof or Warp-10-safe, chaff-shredders) and the potential for beamer nubians to be under 200kT (thus removing the gateability and Dock-buildability advantages of chaff over BBs) make it a less attractive option.

Weapons forced expensive does basically remove the late BB era, which is indeed the period when chaff is most useful, but it's hardly a dominating force forever.


[Updated on: Mon, 20 May 2019 09:46]

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Re: "New" player Mon, 20 May 2019 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loïc is currently offline Loïc

 
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I think the best moment is before the battleship area. I think there is more creativity, and different approaches at that time, with different motors and weapons, than when it is just a matter of ammount of battleships and their escort which are almost all the same design...

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Loïc



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Re: "New" player Tue, 21 May 2019 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Incidentally...

Loïc wrote on Wed, 19 December 2018 03:46
Maybe I was not a so good player, because even playing a Claim Adjuster I didn't have the feeling to have a big advantage on other races !


This depends what version you were playing. 2.5 Claim Adjuster, with half-price terraforming (and gradual free terraforming with the Orbital Adjuster), is not particularly overpowered. Current Claim Adjuster, with instant free terraforming to the maximum extent of terraforming capacity, is overpowered because they can get a higher effective growth rate than other races. The most infamous build is the Total Terraforming Claim Adjuster, which takes Total Terraforming, poor hab (typically about 1-in-14, no immunity, centred), and cheap Biotechnology, and then abuses the instant and massive free terraforming to effectively have great hab (everything is eventually green, and 28% end up perfect) while still getting a ton of points from the poor hab. The current record in resources at year 2450 with such a race is over 320,000, and even more playable TT CAs (i.e. decent mines and cheap/normal weapons) usually come out in six digits.

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Re: "New" player Tue, 21 May 2019 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Loïc wrote on Tue, 21 May 2019 05:02
I think the best moment is before the battleship area. I think there is more creativity, and different approaches at that time, with different motors and weapons, than when it is just a matter of ammount of battleships and their escort which are almost all the same design...

--
Loïc

Eh, there are a few parts where designs can get pretty intricate. You've got your mainline torpedo/missile ships (you pick which, you pick whether to go 16 or 20 weapons, and you pick whether to go for all computers or 4 comp/3 jammer), your mainline beam ships (you can get cute with range 2 vs. range 3 if your ships are lighter for some reason *cough*ramscoops*cough*, and there's the choice of 6 jammers or 3 jammers + 3 capacitors, with Hyper Expansion having Flux Capacitors to make the latter choice more attractive), dedicated chaff-shredders (battleships with range-3 beams, speed 2.25, and computers, in order to kill opposing chaff before your missiles are wasted), the occasional chaff-shredder-shredder (a battleship with higher initiative than enemy chaff-shredders, usually all comps (maybe a slot of capacitors) and Big Mutha Cannons, that can kill the chaff-shredders before they can kill the chaff), and that's just in BB designs. Then you've got bomber designs (gatable minibombers vs. mineproof B-52s vs. Super-Stealth overcloaker Stealth Bombers), freighter designs (Large Freighters and Inner-Strength Super Freighters are cheap, but Galleons can be armed (to prevent "unarmed ships" and "freighters/bombers" targetting) and given speed 2.5 to escape in round 3), SFXes vs. ramscoops, minelayer designs, minesweeper designs, skirmisher (minelayer/sweeper-hunter) designs... Going insane

There's always a lot of room for, if not innovation (let's be real here, the game's over 20 years old), then at least personalisation.

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Re: "New" player Fri, 24 May 2019 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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Loïc wrote on Mon, 20 May 2019 21:02
I think the best moment is before the battleship area. I think there is more creativity, and different approaches at that time, with different motors and weapons, than when it is just a matter of ammount of battleships and their escort which are almost all the same design...


I completly agree, as subjectivly it is, that I do prefer the pre-BB era, too.
At this stage there has been just not enough time for any player to achieve an overwhelming advantage in tech, res or fleet. Every action is a thrill and a true challenge for the operational tactical minded, a time where single ships or stacks of only a few have still power. Any action is also a strategical challenge because you might redirect resources into warfare which could be used for economic development with all the dangers involved of winning one war but loosing in the long run against the other players. So the strategic choices like going to war, against whom and how, while on the one hand are always important criteria, are even more so in this stage.

Nevertheless I'd rather agree with magic9mushroom when it comes to design variety. What usually happens is, as soon as a player reaches certain tech tresholds and decides to go on a battlespray, this first player might use a pretty much standard design. But the Stars inbuilt concept of every design and strat having a "counter" leads already to the next player using a different design. The more the game advances the more hulls and techs are available, the more options every player has to design counter designs. As an exemple, in my last game decided in the pre-BB era, I massbuilt a cruiser with 2 comps as a counter to my enemies' massbuilding a cheap bazooka frigate which were a counter to my previous bazooka destroyers. As you can see, the initial baz DD "could" be called a standard design (it nevertheless totally surprised the opponents), all other ships were not built after the thought what's the best design in itself but in relation to what is on the field or rather in space: the bazooka frigates did an excellent job countering my DDs but were actually a survival-design suited for only that job and not really very good suited to attack. My CC with 2 comps is definetly not in any top list of recommended CC-designs (btw: there is no such top-list because in Stars everybody will tell you: Well, it depends...) but it fulfilled its purpose.

Additionally, especially the player who is attacked AND with less power, often enough becomes quite creative when it comes to special purpose ships which, in itself, aren't good standard designs, but superb in fulfilling a very narrow aim like saving your butt because that's all what counts at that moment. Or sometimes, while you might have a standard warship of the line produced en mass, nevertheless it is the special purpose ship of which you might have built only a handful that gives your main warship an exceptional boost... like the chaff killer mentioned.

magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 21 May 2019 16:52
There's always a lot of room for, if not innovation (let's be real here, the game's over 20 years old), then at least personalisation.

Mmmh, yes and no.
I doubt that any player who was exceptional good 20 years ago would had any survival chance today without having brought himself uptodate with nowadays race designs, tactics and strats... which says a bit about development... as it should be or it would be a really boring game.


[Updated on: Fri, 24 May 2019 13:43]

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Re: "New" player Sat, 25 May 2019 07:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Altruist wrote on Sat, 25 May 2019 03:34
Mmmh, yes and no.
I doubt that any player who was exceptional good 20 years ago would had any survival chance today without having brought himself uptodate with nowadays race designs, tactics and strats... which says a bit about development... as it should be or it would be a really boring game.


Oh, I don't mean it hasn't advanced in 20 years, just that in the course of 20 years most of the advancements have been made. While there have been many advances (prioritisation of Weapons, discovery of chaff and its counters, discovery of HG races, and discovery of IS overpop/double-growth are the huge ones I'm aware of) I'm not sure there's much left of that magnitude and especially not in ship design. I'd love to be proven wrong, though!

(I am actually sitting on the exact formula for population growth including rounding, which makes sense of all those little discontinuities and allows slightly-more-complete optimisation of hold levels, but it's a very minor advantage - maybe 0.01% extra growth over the course of a game? - that takes significant amounts of extra calculation to use.)

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Re: "New" player Mon, 27 May 2019 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 25 May 2019 13:11
(I am actually sitting on the exact formula for population growth including rounding, which makes sense of all those little discontinuities and allows slightly-more-complete optimisation of hold levels, but it's a very minor advantage - maybe 0.01% extra growth over the course of a game? - that takes significant amounts of extra calculation to use.)


*evil grin
Now you are doomed... your time occupied by fizzling around with 0.01% advantage while other players have time to plan your demise.

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Re: "New" player Mon, 27 May 2019 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ricks03 is currently offline ricks03

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 25 May 2019 07:11
...discovery of IS overpop/double-growth are the huge ones ...

(I am actually sitting on the exact formula for population growth including rounding, which makes sense of all those little discontinuities and allows slightly-more-complete optimisation of hold levels, but it's a very minor advantage - maybe 0.01% extra growth over the course of a game? - that takes significant amounts of extra calculation to use.)


I'm unfamiliar with the IS thing.

But sitting on the formula? That's tbe same d###ed closed-source mindedness that has crippled the community.



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Re: "New" player Mon, 27 May 2019 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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ricks03 wrote on Tue, 28 May 2019 04:47
I'm unfamiliar with the IS thing.


Inner-Strength population grows in freighters as though on a 50% world with no crowding. As there is no meaningful limit on the amount of Super Freighters you can build, this lets you have a breeding base of arbitrary size that isn't based on planets. This means you can run all your worlds up to 300% of capacity (causing 8% deaths per year), in order to eke out more resources (as population between 100% and 300% works at half efficiency).

The double-growth trick is an exploit of the Stars! order of events. The order is freighter growth -> production -> planetary growth. However, freighter growth can overflow onto a planet you control if it exceeds available cargo space, which means it's on the planet for production and planetary growth and therefore grows again (as well as producing resources/operating installations for that turn).

Quote:
But sitting on the formula? That's tbe same d###ed closed-source mindedness that has crippled the community.


If someone were to do it for all their discoveries, I'd agree with you, but between these four threads I think I'm doing my part as of late. Like I said, this is a very minor thing - the formula in general use by most utilities is what Stars! is trying to use, there's just a few different rounding errors. The true formula, including all those rounding errors, is so nightmarishly complex that I can't see it being of great use in a real game (Altruist ain't wrong with that evil grin). The only exception would be if someone managed to cobble together a utility, but I've always been of the opinion that people using others' utilities are riding on those others' success and one's utilities should be crafted by oneself (for instance, while I use Posey's spreadsheet, I understand basically all the mechanics in it and have in fact corrected several errors in my copy, besides making another half-dozen single-purpose spreadsheets of my own).

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Re: "New" player Wed, 29 May 2019 07:07 Go to previous message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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> besides making another half-dozen single-purpose spreadsheets of my own.
Several years ago I "collected" my spreadsheet simulations in one file, that has now 8 or 9 tabs, and still many tabs hold several different simulations.

Interesting times those were. Smile

BR, Iztok

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