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Croby FF vs Wolv CC Wed, 27 February 2008 17:06 Go to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

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what are the adv/disadv of each

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Thu, 28 February 2008 04:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

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Location: Australia
To my eye it depends on the situation (along with prop tech and w tech, etc.) Are you on the offense or the defence?

I like AD8 CC - usually pretty nice with w8 or w10 beams. But if Prop is lagging and you have FM/radram then FF with collies seems to last the game.

If W was lagging at bazz for some reason (not unheard if you have C as a priority and you sat on w5 for a while) I'd probably be inclined to run with AD8 Bazz CCs (with either wolv or croby) rather than croby FF, but that's just me. Again, depends on what the neighbours are doing and what you want to achieve. If I had to stick MJs on the CC to get speed up, I'd probably sit back on croby FFs.

If I'm on the defence, I'm thinking nice slow (cheap-ish) croby FFs are looking pretty good Razz

Actually, it would be good to see a couple of experts weigh in and give an opinion Smile

Cheers
S.

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Thu, 28 February 2008 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

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Incidentally, I think the CC wants colloidals more than the FF does.

FF can get away with bazooka, since due to lowest weight moving last they can choose the range vs CCs (with the random weight adjustment taken into account...)

I learned this the hard way in one of my recent games, where colloidal DDs dominated my bazooka croby FFs, since it took my a long time to get into range (the FFs had to back the DDs into the corner before they could close to range, and this was despite the FFs being much 'faster' than the DDs. You only have to have move 1 or more, and weight less, to have this edge. This is why range 0 ships are often so crap.)

Generally, I think CCs are better than croby FFs. However the croby FFs are available earlier in the game and have a lower weight than crusiers (gateable, and can pick range vs cruisers.)

I'm recently starting to question the value of range 2 croby FFs - they get minced by range 3 non-croby FFs/DDs. But their extra survivability against same range ships, or against jihads, is pretty lovely, of course.

Croby FFs feel a lot nicer if you have a nice cheap, fast, prop8 or prop9 scoop to put on them. They're still heavier than a non-croby FF, but at least they get in range of the back line nice and quick so they don't get pounded for too long.



[Updated on: Thu, 28 February 2008 17:59]

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Fri, 29 February 2008 04:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

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Hi!
knightpraetor wrote on Wed, 27 February 2008 23:06

Croby FF vs Wolv CC - what are the adv/disadv of each

Assuming weap-8 and prop-5.
Croby FF: better firepower per costs, gateable, moves last, obsoletes quite fast.
Wolverine CC: better defense per cost, fires first, slightly more lasting design.

Assuming weap-10 and prop-7.
Croby FF: gateable, moves last, only one type of weapon, too easily counter-designed (bazooka + wolverine DLL-7 FF).
Wolverine CC: better defense per cost, but weak ship-killing power, fires first, versatile with sappers and colloidals (good to bring down shields for soon-to-come Jihads), more lasting design.

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Fri, 29 February 2008 05:00]

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Wed, 20 July 2011 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 28 February 2008 14:54

I'm recently starting to question the value of range 2 croby FFs - they get minced by range 3 non-croby FFs/DDs. But their extra survivability against same range ships, or against jihads, is pretty lovely, of course.

I've been contemplating playing IS in my next game, and this Croby Frigate notion seemed quite appealing.

It seems to me, and I'd appreciate someone with actual game experience chiming in here, that Croby FFs get eaten up by Jihads. Not nearly as fast as shielded FFs, of course, but still pretty fast. Considering that getting from W8 to W12 doesn't take that long if you have weapons cheap, it would have to be a really surprise attack - or an absolutely massive one - to compete with Jihads.

Or, as is likely, what am I missing?

Cheers,
Void

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Wed, 20 July 2011 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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I think that the extra survivability in this case was meant as in that a single Jihad missile is not enough to destroy a single FF. I didn't do the numbers but that would be the logical assumption to do.

If a normal FF get destroyed in one hit then it act like normal chaff in the sense that the rest of the power of the missile is lost. But if you need just a little more power than a single Jihad to destroy the same FF, in practice you just doubled their survivability (but only against Jihad).

edit: typos. Sad


[Updated on: Wed, 20 July 2011 20:25]




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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Wed, 20 July 2011 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ManicLurch is currently offline ManicLurch

 
Lt. Junior Grade

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Quote:

that Croby FFs get eaten up by Jihads


I think most beamers with W10 or less will get eaten by jihads when jihads first come out. So the key then becomes, what will you do with those ships during the time you have before your neighbor gets jihads? If you are going to just sit around, well then don't build them. If you are going to be aggressive and attack right away, you might get a few planets by building these FF ships.

So how many you build will likely depend on the race design and your playstyle. An aggressive factoryless race will build more of these than a regular HG I would think.

It is the same issue with any ship when you haven't maxed W tech, try to build just enough to accomplish what they need to. Build too many and you wasted minerals on ships that will be obsolete in 10 turns. Don't build enough and you could be loosing battles and planets.

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Thu, 21 July 2011 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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ManicLurch wrote on Wed, 20 July 2011 19:44

It is the same issue with any ship when you haven't maxed W tech, try to build just enough to accomplish what they need to. Build too many and you wasted minerals on ships that will be obsolete in 10 turns. Don't build enough and you could be loosing battles and planets.

Makes sense. The thing about Jihads is they represent the biggest advantage that two tech levels will ever get you, so it's a little special. Time those Croby frigates a little two late and they'll make for a nice snack. Wink

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Sun, 24 July 2011 05:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Jihads are effective against croby frigates, but often not effective *enough*, especially since you can't build Jihad CAs at Space Docks.

The thing is that croby frigates are far less of a glass cannon than normal frigates (1.5x or maybe 3x firepower but almost 4x armour), and are such far less vulnerable to the guaranteed first shot an enemy with Jihads will receive.

It also depends on the engines the croby frigate horde is using. If they're using the Fuel Miser you're going to get a lot more free shots than if they're using the Trans-Galactic Fuel Scoop.

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Mon, 25 July 2011 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Croby FF needs comparatively high tech to be competitive: energy, prop, weap... And when they meet the Jihad orbitals and a bunch of sappers on accompanying ships, they too die rather fast.

In my book are crobby FFs a tool to remove one slow neighbour. Then they're moved to skirmishing and sweeping duty. Unfortunately in neither role they really excel. Sad

BR, Iztok

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Tue, 12 September 2017 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ludek

 
Crewman 2nd Class

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Hm.. why people forget about minigun, it have range 2 and better initiative than W8 beam, it lower research costs, and with FM can be cheap enough and
light to compete with most R3 designs. Also being galting it can fire at all targets in range with can increase it's firepower at times.
If cost is factor it can be build with only two galtings , latter it can be made decent sweeper/scrimisher (though I suggest FM scout with minigun as
sweeper as most cost effcient design), can make good horde with and it's low firepower it will do better vs jihads (more damage is needed to drop stack firepower)

For non RS -f IS I would seriously think about R3 frigate/destroyer with carbonic armor and W10 beam, for RS one .. maybe just destroyer based especially if you
think your shields will be sapped fast.Without RS Destoyer can have about 2/3rd crusier armor with armor slots used or about cruiser armor if GP slot is used too.

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Wed, 13 September 2017 04:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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ludek wrote on Wed, 13 September 2017 02:44
Hm.. why people forget about minigun, it have range 2 and better initiative than W8 beam, it lower research costs, and with FM can be cheap enough and
light to compete with most R3 designs. Also being galting it can fire at all targets in range with can increase it's firepower at times.


I think people are assuming that, by the time you are deciding whether to build Cruisers or Croby Frigates (the OP's question), you will have Weapons 8. You may have Croby Frigates earlier, and the Mini Gun may indeed be a great weapon on them, but you usually won't be weighing them against Cruisers (though I suppose it depends somewhat on whether you went for early LFs).


As for armour, it tends to be somewhat rare on destroyers and cruisers in practice due to a few unfortunate disadvantages compared to shields:

1) Armour is heavy, weight determines fuel use, and in the pre-cruiser and cruiser eras running out of fuel is a serious hazard. It also affects speed and move order, though that's more complicated.
2) You generally want at least some shields, because of shields' ability to "stack"; shields are pooled across an entire squadron/token of ships, which means they can disproportionately reduce ship-kills in the early rounds of a battle.
3) Shield damage isn't permanent; shields recharge fully after each battle. Hull damage has to be repaired, which always requires at least one turn without combat and may take far longer depending on conditions and severity.

There are certainly some cases in which armour is worthwhile, but there are good reasons it's not particularly common.

Thanks for weighing in, though.

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Re: Croby FF vs Wolv CC Wed, 13 September 2017 14:56 Go to previous message
ludek

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 15
Registered: December 2009
I know .. i'm pointing advantages of using such elements in your fleet (as we both now one design fleet in stars! not just ships)
To recap:
Armoured(carbonic/Organic armour) frigates/destroyers
- Armour is quite light, organic one especially on Destroyer/frigate fighting vs Cruisers can still be on lighter side
- Uses germanium with makes it effectively free on mineral side for -f it's advantage over corby armour with uses up
ironium (with can be used to build more Delata torps or Jihads latter )
- While it lacks stacking capability as shields do after sappers are deployed shields last 1-3 shots if fleets are
properly backed up with sapping ships.Also if you sap enemy shields fast _you_ will be at advantage with all your armour
- Destroyers with 3 organic armour and without RS LRT have over 700 armour, usually weight less than Cruiser designs and cost less.
- Frigates with 2 organic armour (no RS LRT) have almost 400 armour and cost much less
- Ships with no shields makes enemy investment in sapping power of fleet irrelevant .. as long you use only armour.
- If you really want shields destroyer with one slot of shields can be made but I think it weakens concept and efficiency
of armoured fleet .. and in most cases such shiels will be sapped fast.
- In case of armoured frigate/destroyer I would advise going with R3 beam it makes fleet less vulnerable to counterdesign ..
but if you are sure that enemy will be deploying heavier ships like cruisers ...
- Might be worth considering in specialised design employing R0 weapons .. probably way to counter firepower of Cruiser stack
- You can split your stack into many tokens in battle with may be useful if going against ships with lesser range .. especially
good if you use misisles/torps if will make enemy beam token chase your armored tokens all over battleboard.

Minigun
- Damage all stacks in range .. with may be great if enemy uses many tokens/designs .. good for limiting enemy opt
...



[Updated on: Wed, 13 September 2017 15:07]

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