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icon10.gif  Hello again Stars-Autohost! Tue, 27 December 2016 13:46 Go to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

Hello Commanders and Masterminds alike!

A conversation with a friend prompted me to reminisce about Stars during the holidays. I've been playing the game on and off since the original release of the game (Think it was 1996? Earlier even?) and after finding out that I can play the game through a DOSBox or and/or WINE Shocked I've been itching to see what is new!

Back in 2007 I wanted to try going for a factory-less Super Stealth race and since that time I've lost touch completely on what that exactly means, after all Factory-less, Hyper-Expansion, and Hyper-Production were all the rage back in the day! The conversation with my friend came about over the weekend and since then I've likely played 6 or 7 games and have fallen in love again with a Super Stealth Hyper-Production race with Total-Terraforming. All that and my wife is only MILDLY irritated with me! Oh great times indeed!

For being rusty I think I'm doing alright grabbing between 12k to 20k resources against the AI in a Tiny Dense Universe against 2 Expert AI's and with almost twice the tech to boot!. I'm sure I could hit 25k or just shy of it if I was able to grab just a few more planets (Pesky AI's and spamming colonists!). I think the one I'm playing in right now is a Small Dense game with 6 AI's and really is helping me remember what made me enjoy the game so much in my youth.

That all being said how are things going these days? I've noticed 4 active games running at any given time on the Autohost, and I am curious if there are others who still frequent the community who'd be interested in playing a game or two with an old player like myself? If I recall Claim Adjusters were really out of control (often times banned in most games) and I am curious if that has at all changed or if there is a new monster about!?

I will admit I'm still going through the Stars! Strategy Guide to get a good grasp of all the basics and it is fun to see things I get now that I missed when I was much younger. Stars! was always a very mathematically intense game with multiple layers of complexity and I find that it only gets better with age.

Thanks to anybody and everybody who takes the time to say hello and doubly so for those who provide feedback!

Cheers,
Christopher AKA DicesMuse (formerly Entropicurity in 2007 and formerly before that Stalwart in the 1990's Cool )


[Updated on: Tue, 27 December 2016 13:47]




--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Tue, 27 December 2016 15:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

Good old days indeed!
Welcome back and hope your wife only remains mildy irritated Very Happy

I'll post more later but I love playing SS races Smile
While playing against AI is fun getting your eco mm and management practice, a game against humans is much faster.

An SS HP race is very tough to play unless you have a good pre-game team alliance planned or you get lucky and can convince a neighbor race to ally with you.
It is strongly inadvisable to play that in a regular medium size game with the usual settings these days, with a lot of -f and QS races that can churn out jihad DDs by 2425 and beam CC fleets by 2430s.

Feel free to add me on google hangouts at nomoreidsleft at gmail if you want to talk stars or if you want a quick game of stars over the weekend.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Tue, 27 December 2016 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
Commander

Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023
Welcome back. I hope to see you in a game soon.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Wed, 28 December 2016 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

Hello NMid and NeilH, and thanks for the replies!

If I recall correctly one of the last times I've attempted a HP I heard that the -f and QS races were pretty intense. I've done some reading and am brushing up on QS as I don't recall that being a thing though after realizing the potential I was mindblown!

In response to that I'm trying out different benchmarks for a -f SS, which although I've read a lot of articles of how they tend to favor the HP approach sounds like fun. Seems the Rogue Hull, "free" resources for tech, superior scanning tech, and other aspects of the PRT would work well for the fluid nature of the -f SS. Still need to try it out on paper to know for sure.

Though Jihad DD's by 2425 seems overkill, though after trying my SS in a Tiny-Packed I found that I could do it without the "free" resources in my playtest.



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Wed, 28 December 2016 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1359
Registered: May 2008
Welcome back!

I'd have to agree that -f SS is a very viable idea, at least in AccBBS games (-f isn't really viable in standard start). SS really does best when it's on the offensive - you can't cloak planets, after all - and the cheap tech synergises very well with SS's spy bonus.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 29 December 2016 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

I've been reading up and I didn't realize that we dodged almost losing Autohost this year! Currently trying to work with the wife to see if I can't at least donate something, as 20 Years is a true dedicated effort and I didn't realize it had been like this up to this point.

That being said I'd really want to get into a game, casual or not, sometime soon and make use of Ron's and the communities hard work. My schedule is a bit limited mind you but am interested in a once a day exchange of files and some bouncing back and forth of some ideas. I've followed up in the Game Announcements but it looks like two games soaked up most of the players for a while! Sad

In the meantime I'm pondering trying to grab as much of the Stars! Content and find a way to host the Stars! FAQ and other articles on my personal domain. Will have to follow up on that after the holiday dust settles.



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 29 December 2016 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

Thanks for the reply Magic!

And I absolutely am starting to see the enjoyment of how fluid the -f playstyle works with regards to Super Stealth. I think the other thing I wanted to try out was a Quick Start Inner Strength and/or Space Demolition and possibly take a crack at making an Alternate Reality Race (AR is such an oddball!)

At the moment I've had to curb a lot of my obsessive game time after having had my "holiday binge" of Stars! so now it is just a matter of finding a game to play in casually. Playing against the AI, although fun, isn't as difficult or as challenging as I'd like. I really enjoyed the Diplomacy side of things and even going so far as to enjoying the flavoring of one's race/ships and what not.

I think it was the first Multiplayer Game I had a chance of playing, really interesting start but my first SS race was sadly decimated and although I had to leave the game the players found a way to "save" a small group and kept the race in a Zoo. Love it!



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 29 December 2016 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1359
Registered: May 2008
Entropicurity wrote on Fri, 30 December 2016 01:13
Thanks for the reply Magic!


m9m or Mushroom, please.

Quote:
And I absolutely am starting to see the enjoyment of how fluid the -f playstyle works with regards to Super Stealth. I think the other thing I wanted to try out was a Quick Start Inner Strength and/or Space Demolition and possibly take a crack at making an Alternate Reality Race (AR is such an oddball!)


QS IS is pretty rare, to my understanding, largely because the temptation's always there to go -f. But hey, +f IS design is relatively-unexplored territory and if you want to experiment with it more power to you.

AR is an oddball. The prevalence of AccBBS games hurts it a lot; AR does much better with a standard start.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Mon, 09 January 2017 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
talkingbologna is currently offline talkingbologna

 
Senior Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 86
Registered: November 2016
Location: 1947
Welcome Entropicurity,

I'm new as well (totally new, though) and if you get time after your dual, I'd love to dual you. Or dual anybody...or play any game, really. lol

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Tue, 10 January 2017 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

Hello TalkingBologna!

That would be a lot of fun indeed, and from the looks of it your lined up for another game with me as well with a few other intermediate/handicapped players! Still in my duel though we had to restart due to a file corruption problem that we have not yet figured out how to fix and had to restart with a new set of races and "map."

If you are indeed interested in playing a game with me let me know your preferences in a direct message and I'll see if we can't get things rolling while we wait on the new game to start!

Cheers!



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Tue, 10 January 2017 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

Hello m9m!

magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 29 December 2016 17:37
QS IS is pretty rare, to my understanding, largely because the temptation's always there to go -f. But hey, +f IS design is relatively-unexplored territory and if you want to experiment with it more power to you.


Actually it seems it was touched on somewhat by Jason Cawley when he was trying to help diversify the community when there was a flood of his "Federation" Race found here.

The "Yankies" appears to be a race he used extensively in one of his games, though it isn't quite a QS as it is a typical HG style take for Inner Strength. I'm going to fidget with it a bit more and see where I can take it. Thanks for the input!



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 12 January 2017 05:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1359
Registered: May 2008
Entropicurity wrote on Wed, 11 January 2017 01:23
Hello m9m!

magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 29 December 2016 17:37
QS IS is pretty rare, to my understanding, largely because the temptation's always there to go -f. But hey, +f IS design is relatively-unexplored territory and if you want to experiment with it more power to you.


Actually it seems it was touched on somewhat by Jason Cawley when he was trying to help diversify the community when there was a flood of his "Federation" Race found here.

The "Yankies" appears to be a race he used extensively in one of his games, though it isn't quite a QS as it is a typical HG style take for Inner Strength. I'm going to fidget with it a bit more and see where I can take it. Thanks for the input!

Thing about JC is that he didn't understand the value of overpop, which is the main reason HP IS is suboptimal and QS IS is dubious (it doubles pop resources, but not factory resources). As such all his race design regarding IS is somewhat out of date.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 12 January 2017 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

At the moment I'm delving through various articles to get a good grasp of what exactly is current and what isn't. I'm slowly making my way through the IS forum currently and finding some good info on that there. From what I can tell I have found the following links to help iron things out for me:

Stars!Wiki Race Design
Basic Race Design by Art Lathrop
"A Few Race Designs" by Jason Cawley
"Race Design, Step by Step" by Mahrin Skel

These are what I've been referrencing so far and I'm getting a sense of what to expect with Early/Mid/Late game. I've been using the following page to help me get a good grasp of the development and how to best make the most of each race's economy:

Stars!Wiki Testbed

I haven't read much up on Overpopulation research though will most certainly check that out next. Thanks!



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 12 January 2017 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

...so did some searching. The idea of a 300% over-capacity planet is... astonishing. The whole "orgy" concept has a whole new meaning now, because from the look of it as long as you have the colonists there to operate them, the idea of more factories (or a more substantial IS -f) swarm is just... wow.

Details of it I found here.



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 12 January 2017 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
Entropicurity wrote on Thu, 12 January 2017 15:25
...so did some searching. The idea of a 300% over-capacity planet is... astonishing. The whole "orgy" concept has a whole new meaning now, because from the look of it as long as you have the colonists there to operate them, the idea of more factories (or a more substantial IS -f) swarm is just... wow.

Details of it I found here.


Two considerations, two conclusions:

1) Often enough IS is played as -f because the overpopping IS can cope a bit better with the lack of factories in the long run.
The biggest advantage of the orgie in comparison to bombers is, of course, the conquest of intact factories and mines. Well, -f and conquered factories... the conquered factories will get the bad minimal values of the -f, so there are rather lousy.

2) An orgie takes time. And even more time if you want to minimize the impact on your empire (due to the pop you take out). It takes a looong game to really use an orgie. In the example above, which definetly is impressive, the game lasted until 2552. Such long games are rare. Much more common are games lasting around 80 turns... too short to use an orgie as a deciding factor.


The orgie is such an impressive and completly crazy usage of game mechanichs that it is in every IS-players' mind... leading to the rather common mistake of taking pop too early out to just breed, thus crippling the whole economy and then loosing the game.

The other IS problem: defensive mindset. Because there seems so much to be gained from a little bit more of overpopping, the IS player might not look outward to expand but only inward. But as fine as those overpopping abilities are, 100k pop are MUCH more productive on a newly conquered planet than as overpopped 50% addon which even can't operate factories and die constantly.


[Updated on: Thu, 12 January 2017 16:39]

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Thu, 12 January 2017 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1359
Registered: May 2008
Entropicurity wrote on Fri, 13 January 2017 01:25
...so did some searching. The idea of a 300% over-capacity planet is... astonishing. The whole "orgy" concept has a whole new meaning now, because from the look of it as long as you have the colonists there to operate them, the idea of more factories (or a more substantial IS -f) swarm is just... wow.

Details of it I found here.

It's not quite that good. Overpopulation (extra pop past 100% capacity) doesn't operate installations (except possibly defences? Not sure about that one) and only produces half the pop resources it ordinarily would. Hence, going to 300% capacity gives you 200% of the pop resources and 100% of the factory resources and minerals compared to leaving it at 100%. But this is the reason -f IS is so incredibly popular: they don't have capacity problems to the same extent that other -f do, since a 1/900 OBRM -f IS can still get an impressive 2444 resources per 100% planet.

Do note that at 300% capacity on a green, population dies at 8% per turn, as though it were an impossibly bad -80% red. You need a similar amount of pop in orbit to that on the ground in order to sustain overpop. Of course, the corollary to that is that IS can use red planets rather easily.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Fri, 13 January 2017 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

I have to say, I've been testbedding the IS and am finding that by the time I get a planet 70% or more value to about 18-20% Capacity that by the time my transports get there the planet skyrockets in productivity. I think two "drops" of transports does the trick just fine, but now I'm trying to figure out how to capitalize on that, ISB seems to almost be perfect for this (a starting 600 resource starbase is tough to manage early on).

If anything, it makes travel downtime to a minimum and is really pushing my planets to %50 capacity with little effort, as even in small amounts the transports feel like they emulate a much higher GR!



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Sun, 15 January 2017 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 968
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

Hi Entropicurity,


nice to see you around on starsautohost. Hop you will enjoy your time here.


ccmaster

PS: you should us the BB benchmark says much more then the resources


[Updated on: Sun, 15 January 2017 10:36]

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Sun, 15 January 2017 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1359
Registered: May 2008
ccmaster wrote on Mon, 16 January 2017 02:33
PS: you should us the BB benchmark says much more then the resources

Standard BB benchmark is hilariously biased toward weapons cheap rest expensive. No other phase of the game has a weapons/con gulf anywhere near as large as the late BB era (pre-cruiser is weap 6-8 con 3-6, cruiser is weap 10-12 con 9, early BB is weap 12-16 con 13, nub is weap 26 con 26), and even then there's a few other toys of similar priority to Armageddon Missiles (full terra tech, valanium if you don't have RS, final-generation electronics) that that test just ignores.

Yes, ship benchmarks are good, but that particular one is incredibly slanted. Juggernaut BBs are fairer, IMO.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Mon, 16 January 2017 05:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
Commander

Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023
I assumed he meant juggernaut bb test. That is standard.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Mon, 16 January 2017 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
talkingbologna is currently offline talkingbologna

 
Senior Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 86
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Location: 1947
Would a fair benchmark be, say, juggernaut BBs with bear shields(rs), supercomputers, and prop12 scoop or IS10?

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Mon, 16 January 2017 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 968
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

Hi ,

the standard is BB with amagedon missles and it is good.
It is much better then the resources test but not perfekt.

And yes you have to get to weapon 24 and build ships. So the test is to see if you race could handle research and minerals in time.
Weapon have all races cheap or should have so it is a fix nummber you have to research you also could even the techfields but it will
not change the overall resources you need putting in resources.

So the BB test only shows if the race is broken or not and how fast the race could be in real game. You need minerals and resources and research for it.
So dont hang on the weapon is higher thing this is not the way the testbed works.
If you want go for Nubians with jihads. Should be mostly the same as the ships are cheaper. Only the minerals needed you have to check.


ccmaster

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Mon, 16 January 2017 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

I believe the test mentioned is also referenced here:

http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Testbed

I've been fidgeting with it, and think I've done fairly well with a -f SS though I've read on some of the most recent "records" and have some work still to do to get my economy where it needs to be.

I have to say, after testbedding without factories these past couple of times that when it came time to try a +f race I was a bit thrown off. It is amazing how much of a change the playstyles are!

And thanks for the tip CCMaster!



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Tue, 17 January 2017 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1359
Registered: May 2008
ccmaster wrote on Tue, 17 January 2017 07:54
And yes you have to get to weapon 24 and build ships. So the test is to see if you race could handle research and minerals in time.
Weapon have all races cheap or should have so it is a fix nummber you have to research you also could even the techfields but it will
not change the overall resources you need putting in resources.


Yes, it does. Because the weapons requirement is so much higher than anything else for Armageddon/Organic/Bear/BSC Battleships, taking non-weapons fields expensive does not appreciably slow their attainment.

Total resource requirement for weapons cheap rest expensive race = 452,480 tech + 118,400 ships = 570,880
Total resource requirement for WCN cheap L norm PB expensive race = 365,045 tech + 118,400 ships = 483,445

3.5 cheap gets only a 15% cost saving.

Compare the juggernaut case:

Total resource requirement for weapons cheap rest expensive race = 245,800 tech + 102,400 ships = 348,200
Total resource requirement for WCN cheap L norm PB expensive race = 158,365 tech + 102,400 ships = 260,765

Here it gets a 25% cost saving.

And for 100 omega nubians (TGD 5 omega 1 nexus 1 jam30 1 thruster 1 CPS 3 deflector):

Total resource requirement for weapons cheap rest expensive race = 2,678,125 tech + 80,700 ships = 2,758,825
Total resource requirement for WCN cheap L norm PB expensive race = 1,159,645 tech + 80,700 ships = 1,240,345

Here the 3.5 cheap race saves a mammoth 55%.

Basically, the W cheap rest expensive races get away with the expensive fields more easily in the Arm BB benchmark than they would with the more balanced targets of most phases of the game, so they place higher than they should (because the extra econ they bought with it isn't squelched, but the drawbacks are). That's what I mean when I say that it's biased (though not quite as much as I'd thought) and that more balanced tech on the benchmark ship would be better. I do wholly agree, though, about an aggregated-free-resources benchmark (such as tech + ship) being better than a snapshot-total-resources benchmark like Xk@2450 (which cannot sensibly compare factoried and factoryless races due to the absurdly-different "disposable percentage").

talkingbologna wrote on Tue, 17 January 2017 06:43
Would a fair benchmark be, say, juggernaut BBs with bear shields(rs), supercomputers, and prop12 scoop or IS10?


I don't see why not.

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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! Tue, 17 January 2017 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 968
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

Hi ,

ok I have not so much interest to explain it again but well someone have.
So sorry for my English all of you, maybe someone else could bring it in better English.

History :
Long time ago the stars-player what to test-bed there races without playing a real game to have some numbers to see what race do better in games.
The Resources Test was born.
Several people bring out maxed Races for this test ( CA TT special ) what could not played in a game as they are broken. So they have to look for a
other test what is more realistic that you still could see what race should do better in a real game or is at least playable.

What where the thoughts about it in the past:

You research basic if you can :

Frigates weapon 8 ( beams)
Frigates Weapon 9/10 ( beams)
CC Weapon 10 ( beams)
CC Weapon 12 ( Missile)
BB Weapon 12 ( Missile)
BB Weapon 16 ( Beams some times Missile)
BB Weapon 22 ( Beams)

First there should be a test for every tech-step and a build of fix number of ships. But it was to complicated to find rules where you have to build is it allowed to research on etc.
So the last idea was to bring them all together. They take weapon 24 for the shipdesine.
The weapon 24 are taken to simulate the needs of other research you have to do some times.
Also the Weapon 24 Missiles where taken in the design not because they need tech 24 they came in for the high Ironium cost to simulate the early build ships.

No one says the test is perfect for all kinds of testing, he was never created for this. He was created to see if a race is playable in a game and point out how good the race could be, just for the people who loves numbers.



ccmaster













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