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No-com games and runaway players

Mon, 18 April 2016 06:11

iztok

Commander

Messages: 1205
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe

Hi!

I'd like to point out one problem, that has quite general nature: the "runaway" player in a no-comm game in medium or larger uni. Let's have a look at the rather-usual situation.

The "runaway" player in large lead KNOWS he will win. He has already taken space of 2-3 "dead" players Twisted Evil

, his econ is still growing from that taken space, he's not in any serious war, because his enemies are dead, and most other players simply don't know what's going on, so the victory's just a matter execution: taking out one remaining player after another. But execution will take countless DAYS of MM, and MM is not fun. Crying or Very Sad

There's also the other side: other players had lots of fun building their empires and fighting their wars. Since they're limited to just their space, they can't really grow, they fight about equally-matched neighbors, and victories in these fights are in rather far future, because they can't ask for help. The only sign something is not right in the game is players start dropping, one per 15-20 turns. Then all of a sudden, there comes someone and claims he has won, but most of surviving players barely know his position on the map. "How can he claim victory, when I'm doing so well?" Well, the real fact is you're lacking a lot of info. Crying or Very Sad

This is rather common for no-comm games, esp. with more players and large distances in universe, so players don't know what's going on (no comm, so no messages from the other part of the uni) and also can't organize their own all-seeing sensor network, because universe is simply too large to be covered in such a way.

I've been looking for solution and came out with some ideas:

The purpose of a no-comm is to limit the time players would need to spend on diplomacy. So lets keep that spirit, but give SOME info on how a game proceeds. I'd allow just one public ("to-all") message per turn per player. So small amount of text to process, tho the benefit of that would be everyone would gain some general info on what's going in other parts of the uni.
No uni above small, no more players than 6. In such an uni a player COULD organize decent sensor network early to get general info on what's going on. The bad part here is no sense of "epicness". Tho IMX the only thing that becomes epic in medium+ universes is the MM.
"Public player scores" available early, turn 40 or so. I'm somewhat reluctant to this solution, because it gives away too much info on any player in the game. I'd rather have some neutral party (game host) periodically (each 5th turn) made public just player scores, but that'd require some additional work I doubt host would be happy to do.

This is the way I see the problem tackled. I would be happy if some other solution could be presented.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Mon, 18 April 2016 06:15]

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Re: No-com games and runaway players

Mon, 18 April 2016 09:22

Altruist

Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin

iztok wrote on Mon, 18 April 2016 12:11

No uni above small, no more players than 6. In such an uni a player COULD organize decent sensor network early to get general info on what's going on. The bad part here is no sense of "epicness". Tho IMX the only thing that becomes epic in medium+ universes is the MM.

What's IMX standing for?

I totally agree that in small-sized universes every player should and is able to scout well enough to get a picture of what's going on.

Quote:

"Public player scores" available early, turn 40 or so. I'm somewhat reluctant to this solution, because it gives away too much info on any player in the game. I'd rather have some neutral party (game host) periodically (each 5th turn) made public just player scores, but that'd require some additional work I doubt host would be happy to do.

There are several solutions:
* Public player score
* limited cut down information of the public player score (given out by the host every 10 turns)
* an anonymous ranking (but that won't really help the players decide who is winning)

Additionally in non-communication-games I would ALWAYS use one or several victory conditions. Quite many are possible wether they may be thematic or whatsoever. Typical "runaway"-victory conditions could look like this:
* exceeds second rank place by 100%
* owns 1 capital ship
=> Winner must meet 2 of the above selected criteria.
=> At least 50 years must pass before a winner is declared.

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Re: No-com games and runaway players

Mon, 18 April 2016 09:31

XAPBob

Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

I assume: IMX - in my experience

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Re: No-com games and runaway players

Tue, 19 April 2016 21:45

ManicLurch

Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 462
Registered: May 2009

Even if you give the players more information in these no communication games through public player scores or host communication, it is hard to get cooperation against the giant since they can't communicate. How do you negotiate a truce with the player you have been fighting all game to gang up on the monster if you can't talk to him?

Because of this, I think

Quote:

I'd allow just one public ("to-all") message per turn per player.

Is the best option for what you are trying to accomplish. You might even limit this to once every 5 turns.

Just my opinion.

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Re: No-com games and runaway players

Wed, 20 April 2016 19:21

m.a@stars

Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left

iztok wrote on Mon, 18 April 2016 12:11

players don't know what's going on (no comm, so no messages from the other part of the uni) and also can't organize their own all-seeing sensor network, because universe is simply too large

1) Use cloaked scouts. Or just send many and hope people realize intel gathering is mandatory to spot the runaway races. Or play NAS JoaT. Twisted Evil

2) Keep a tally of enemy techs and ships, and their evolution over time, even if it's only near your own borders. Better/bigger fleets point the stronger empire.
3) Cooperate. It happens even in no-comm all-enemy games. Lurking

4) Realize most ppl wanting a no-comm game just want to be the runaway winner instead of having to really fight for victory, and refuse to waste your time playing them. Whip

IMX I've done or seen all 4 options.

[Updated on: Wed, 20 April 2016 19:24]

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: No-com games and runaway players

Sat, 23 April 2016 21:17

LittleEddie

Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware

You could also have the winner only declared when he's the only player left putting in turns.

Having the largest economy is an advantage but it comes with the cost of MM and defending/attacking on many fronts. And just because one player gets a lead in the early game doesn't mean it's going to lead to victory. Sometimes it's easy to take out weak neighbours early but that doesn't mean you have the skills needing to play a 200 turn game.

The last No-Com game I played ended with the "REAL' victory condition being 'having the largest economy in 80 turns', not an enjoyable ending for the players in 2nd, 3rd and 4th place as they never had a chance to interact with the "leader".
edit. and knew that they where still far from the games victory conditions.

AND Victory was called with NONE of the Games victory conditions being meet.

Quote:

--Own 60% of all planets
--Achieve tech 24 in 6 fields.
--Exceed second place score by 100%
--Winner must meet 2
--At least 100 years must pass

Let's set workable victory conditions and then meet them.

[Updated on: Sat, 23 April 2016 21:19]

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Re: No-com games and runaway players

Tue, 06 December 2016 11:46

skoormit

Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama

iztok wrote on Mon, 18 April 2016 05:11

...
The purpose of a no-comm is to limit the time players would need to spend on diplomacy. So lets keep that spirit, but give SOME info on how a game proceeds. I'd allow just one public ("to-all") message per turn per player. So small amount of text to process, tho the benefit of that would be everyone would gain some general info on what's going in other parts of the uni.

I like this idea.

I very strongly prefer no-comms games (in fact, I don't think I'll play a full-comms game again), but I think this rule could be an improvement for no-comms.

Stars players being who they are, though, the rule must come with restrictions.
Otherwise we will all search for ways to exploit the rule that might compromise the spirit in some people's opinion, without violating the letter.
(Okay, maybe not all of us, but I know I would, and I know I'm not alone.)

What we need's a few good taters.

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