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Circle is the New Square Thu, 10 April 2014 16:21 Go to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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I just created the universe for Dynamic Duos 6, which involved remapping the stars into a circle of such a size that the intended star density (in this case, the density of a medium/dense universe) is maintained within the circle.

And now I am wondering why all games don't do this. A circle doesn't have corners to deal with. Corners make it hard to have balanced starting positions for all players. And since we can move individual planets wherever we like now with StarsHostTool, it's easy to make sure nobody gets hurt by the luck of the starting location. Just arrange everyone more or less evenly around the circle.

An advert for a game that will be remapped in this manner should specify how the locations of the HWs will be determined.

One method is to divide 360 by the number of players and place each HW that many degrees apart (measured from the center of the circle), at a particular distance from the center.
I like to vary both parameters (degrees and distance) randomly to avoid making it easy for the players to eyeball the universe and pick out the obvious HW locations in year 2400.
By altering the distance parameter, the game can be set up for generally earlier or later conflict. A short distance from the center puts the players closer together. A large distance spreads them out more.

If that method is too uniform for your tastes, you can instead divide the universe into slices (one per player), and pick a random point within each slice (perhaps at some minimum and/or maximum distance from the center).

Any other thoughts on fun ways to set up a circular universe?



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Re: Circle is the New Square Thu, 10 April 2014 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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A hollowed-out center, iow, a ring. Twisted Evil

I wonder if "flat" density is the only way to go, tho. Sherlock Clustering used to be a popular variant in old games, and my old map generator can use "gaussian" randomness to create rings with denser bands or "globular" clusters out of square maps. Rolling Eyes

Then there's spirals, of course. Dueling



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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 07:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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I would vote in favor.
Currently the player in the centre faces unfair odds with enemies on all sides, or an unfair advantage that he can expand in any direction if he has enough scouts.

I was planning on reading Neil and your posts on how to do it, but I left it on the backburner as I had already created ATSR2 by then.

For reference, can you repost how you created your circle universe here?



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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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Toroids are clearly the way to go - I wonder if there is a celtic knot style arrangement that would do the same


Maybe just a ring universe - with a reasonable gap in the middle to make a "closed" rectangle?

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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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UC 1.3 lets you remap with a 400x400 bmp (where stars may be distributed in white pixels, not black). Using a free editor you can paint discrete concentric overlapping circles of distinctly different densities, or a gradient. Such a gradient increasing in density could be calculated to represent the density of a sphere flattened into 2 degrees. Another variant with alternating densities could accommodate placement of players closer in or farther out based on their relative econ settings (eg -f toward the core, HPs toward the rim).

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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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nmid wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 06:28
...For reference, can you repost how you created your circle universe here?


1) Create the game with size/density settings to produce the desired number of planets.
2) If necessary, stretch the universe to accommodate the circle that will achieve the desired planet density.
3) Use the Universe Creator utility and a simple image of a black circle on a white background to remap the stars into a circle.
4) Use XyliGUN's StarsHostTool to move individual HWs (and other planets, if desired).



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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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XAPBob wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 09:08
Toroids are clearly the way to go...


But why? Why leave a gap in the middle?

We can move HWs wherever we like. Therefore we can place them in a circle (exactly or approximately) so that the starting positions are roughly balanced.

But why leave no stars whatsoever in the middle? Seems to me like the stars in the middle will be fought over. And interestingly so, since all players will have roughly equal access to them.

If you take the middle stars out, you are giving everyone one less direction to expand.



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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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skoormit wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 12:17

...
3) Use the Universe Creator utility and a simple image of a black circle on a white background to remap the stars into a circle....


Sorry, should be a white circle on a black background.



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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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skoormit wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 18:21
XAPBob wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 09:08
Toroids are clearly the way to go...


But why? Why leave a gap in the middle?

We can move HWs wherever we like. Therefore we can place them in a circle (exactly or approximately) so that the starting positions are roughly balanced.

But why leave no stars whatsoever in the middle? Seems to me like the stars in the middle will be fought over. And interestingly so, since all players will have roughly equal access to them.

If you take the middle stars out, you are giving everyone one less direction to expand.

Two separate questions - I was thinking of a 3D toroid - clearly impossible with Stars! - but it's the universe of Asteroids (and others) - when you exit the map to the left you reappear on the right, similarly top to bottom.

The "Ring" is a halfway house - you get a long thin universe, where running off the end brings you back to the start - but you can't run off the top to get back to the bottom - if you see what I mean???

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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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skoormit wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 19:21
But why? Why leave a gap in the middle?

.
.
.

But why leave no stars whatsoever in the middle? Seems to me like the stars in the middle will be fought over. And interestingly so, since all players will have roughly equal access to them.

You asked for alternatives. I don't think one is better than the other, just different. Twisted Evil

As for focusing player ambitions towards a contested middle "ground" I think some games have already done it. Lurking



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Re: Circle is the New Square Fri, 11 April 2014 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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skoormit wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 19:17
1) Create the game with size/density settings to produce the desired number of planets.
2) If necessary, stretch the universe to accommodate the circle that will achieve the desired planet density.
3) Use the Universe Creator utility and a simple image of a black circle on a white background to remap the stars into a circle.
4) Use XyliGUN's StarsHostTool to move individual HWs (and other planets, if desired).

My map generator, once polished, could probably shorten the task to
1) Generate starmap with desired sizes, shapes and densities. I use math and randomness, best suited for certain desired results. Work at computer
2) Remap onto game's coordinates (assuming the tool for that isn't just a dream) Whip



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Circle is the New Square Sat, 12 April 2014 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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skoormit wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 19:17
nmid wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 06:28
...For reference, can you repost how you created your circle universe here?


1) Create the game with size/density settings to produce the desired number of planets.
2) If necessary, stretch the universe to accommodate the circle that will achieve the desired planet density.
3) Use the Universe Creator utility and a simple image of a black circle on a white background to remap the stars into a circle.
4) Use XyliGUN's StarsHostTool to move individual HWs (and other planets, if desired).


Thanks a lot, Skoormit! Copied and saved.

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Re: Circle is the New Square Sat, 12 April 2014 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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skoormit wrote on Thu, 10 April 2014 13:21
I just created the universe for Dynamic Duos 6, which involved remapping the stars into a circle of such a size that the intended star density (in this case, the density of a medium/dense universe) is maintained within the circle.


Skoormit,

I am flattered that you like my idea enough to present it as your own.

neilhoward wrote on Sun, 30 March 2014 15:28
Skoormit,
I would like the stars distributed in a circle, and teams radiating out from the centre like spokes on a wheel. This way there is no uneven advantage from access to corners, and each team has one player closer to the centre. I prefer that each team has their HWs within 162ly of each other, and that the nearest enemies (for the player closer to the centre) be ~300ly distant.

A medium dense universe has ~360 stars at a density of 2.5 stars per 10kly^2 (or 1 star per 40kly^2). To achieve that density a circle would need a diameter of ~677ly.

I would gen the medium dense uni and stretch to large size with Stretched Universe, then remap to a circle with Universe Creator 1.3, then move HWs with Xyligun's StarsHostTool.

Here is an image template to use with UC 1.3, to remap a for a circle. To visualize the spokes I recommend I have added transects with the grey line showing distance to scale between team HWs, and a red line showing distance to scale between closest enemies. Last, is an image of one possible distribution of HWs. Of course we do not want to use this exactly, as it would be too easy to predict the positions of enemy HWs. If inner worlds are ~300ly from the centre and ~300ly (ie between 257 and 324ly) from their nearest enemies that should be adequate if each inner world average between their two nearest neighbours is close to those averages of all inner HWs.

Here is a reference for universe size info, and a tutorial to resize a universe.

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Re: Circle is the New Square Sat, 12 April 2014 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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neilhoward wrote on Mon, 31 March 2014 17:02
neilhoward wrote on Sun, 30 March 2014 15:28
...
A medium dense universe has ~360 stars at a density of 2.5 stars per 10kly^2 (or 1 star per 40kly^2). To achieve that density a circle would need a diameter of ~677ly.


Should read radius of ~677ly. So, 677*677*π=1.439.883ly^2. Whereas the square medium dense has 1.440.000ly^2, a staggering 0.00008% difference.


neilhoward wrote on Sun, 30 March 2014 15:35
With the above suggestion, outer HWs would be ~424ly from their nearest enemies inner HWs and ~465ly from their nearest enemies outer HWs.


neilhoward wrote on Sat, 29 March 2014 12:54
This is the rough distribution I tried for with DD5:
http://postimg.org/image/funjp0aq3/

Ally HWs were within 162ly. Players nearer the core were 350-400ly from enemies. No stars were left in corners so no team got advantage from extra undisputed backfield. Stars were a little bit more dense, but much more evenly distributed.


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Re: Circle is the New Square Sat, 12 April 2014 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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errr... I didn't read his post as saying that he was the origin of the circle concept.

I know that you created DD5 in the circle format, while skoormit did DD6.

I'm sure it must have been done earlier as well if we look back?

ps - I try to create all my maps in the circle concept but without the UC tool... Smile
As you can guess, it doesn't work out all the polished as you guys make it.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Circle is the New Square Sat, 12 April 2014 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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neilhoward wrote on Sat, 12 April 2014 11:58
Skoormit,

I am flattered that you like my idea enough to present it as your own.


Maybe you should read the whole thread before getting your panties in a wad:

What nmid actually said:
I was planning on reading Neil and your posts on how to do it, but I left it on the backburner as I had already created ATSR2 by then.
For reference, can you repost how you created your circle universe here?


I never once took credit for anything.




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Re: Circle is the New Square Sun, 13 April 2014 18:16 Go to previous message
neilhoward

 
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