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Lowest possible growth rate Sat, 19 October 2013 18:23 Go to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
Current anti monster rules are:
CA - Must take all full width habs (no immunities)
All- No more than 2 clicks on any option in the economy page.

That's 530+ point of Hab (from default).
I can't go -f to claw it back, -T is risjy with no comms, no trading...

LRTs can only get you so far...

What GR could be tolerated if you know that you can't have a -f WM next door...

With -T I can just about get 12%, but 10% is looking more realistic, and that is taking 8/12/8/4 factories...
Are they worth building?

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Sat, 19 October 2013 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

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With the race restrictions in place you know you won't face a -f or any kind of QS. So you don't have to worry about being eaten alive by 2420.

In a no-comms game, you are right, -T is usually a death kiss since you can't trade your OAs for tech.

You can get W cheap, rest expensive, tho. Which is still bad.

You can make a 12% race with TT and 10/9/10 factories if you are willing to take CE and 1/1200 pop efficiency.

I actually think this CA can achieve a reasonably competitive resource growth rate in this environment. You can't keep pace with a JOAT, but you can stay in the ballpark. You'll fall way behind during the early turns when everyone is growing the HW to 25%. As soon as breeding season starts, though, you are breeding to better hab than everyone else. With TT you start with +-7 TForming in each hab. That's a really big deal. Other races are hoping for an 80+ nearby as their second planet, but you'll have better than that for sure. I haven't tested it, but in a dense uni you can probably expect two 90+ breeders within 162ly.

The 12% growth rate seems low, but what is important is your *effective* growth rate as you expand out of your HW. Your effective rate depends a lot on the value of the planets you find. When other players with those phat 18% growth rates have colonized 5 planets, they might have HW, 80, 70, 50, 40. You might have only gotten to your third planet at this point, but you have HW, 90+, 90+. And the next planet for you will be 80+. At this point, while you are far behind in total numbers, your effective growth rate is probably well ahead of everyone else. You will start to climb back into it. The longer the game goes, the more planets you get, the more effect your TForming advantage has.

At least, that's how I see it. Definitely deserves to be run through a testbed or three, but while testing you should bear in mind that in a game against humans you'll have to spend some early resources showing some teeth so that other players don't push you over early, before you have a
...




What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Sun, 20 October 2013 02:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

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Yes, the longer the 'prewar' the less that 12% hurts, but it feels fatal in my current testbed.

Have to confess I hadn't wanted to take 1/1200 - but I suppose the standard breakpoints don't quite apply...


(My first testbed had PPS on for info. When it kicked in I had still done perfect micro, and my resources were 20% of the leader, and 50% of the worst AI...
That kind of deficit is going to be hard to recover from.)

OTOH I've just made some compromises based on that experience, and I'm happier that I might get off my HW before I get killed Wink
The random events are going to hurt me as well, Those artefacts would be nice, I just can't justify dropping growth (and offerring popdrops) to get them.


[Updated on: Sun, 20 October 2013 04:58]

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Tue, 22 October 2013 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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XAPBob wrote on Sun, 20 October 2013 01:34
My first testbed had PPS on for info. When it kicked in I had still done perfect micro, and my resources were 20% of the leader, and 50% of the worst AI...


But you won't face races like those AI races. Without immunities, no race will have explosive early growth.

You didn't take LSP did you?



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Tue, 22 October 2013 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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No, LSP with a low growth rate would be rather painful, even in this setting.
The lack of explosive growth on other races had occurred to me...

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Tue, 22 October 2013 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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skoormit wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 07:27
But you won't face races like those AI races. Without immunities, no race will have explosive early growth.


A 3wide HG is reasonably explosive.

EDIT: Regarding AI resources, the Expert AI uses race designs that are over 1000 points in the red. For a race to have less resources than them at 2420 is normal.


[Updated on: Tue, 22 October 2013 22:28]

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Wed, 23 October 2013 06:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 03:18
Regarding AI resources, the Expert AI uses race designs that are over 1000 points in the red. For a race to have less resources than them at 2420 is normal.

I knew they had excess points, I didn't realise it was *that* biased...

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Wed, 23 October 2013 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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XAPBob wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 05:28
magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 03:18
Regarding AI resources, the Expert AI uses race designs that are over 1000 points in the red. For a race to have less resources than them at 2420 is normal.

I knew they had excess points, I didn't realise it was *that* biased...


That's why I'm always in last place at 2420 against the AI?

I'd started to think I was doing something wrong...



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Wed, 23 October 2013 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ManicLurch is currently offline ManicLurch

 
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While I haven't tested this, I can't imagine a 12% growth rate CA would be able to compete. With these game settings, even though no immunities are allowed, I can make a descent HG race with 1/5 habs, 19% GR and anywhere from 2 cheap to 3.5 cheap techs (depending on PRT as some are more expensive).

I doubt a 12% CA keeping up, even with its instant terraforming advantage. The only situation I can see is if the game will allow lots of time before battles start. I think these game settings have turned CA into AR, weak early (needs expert skill, right game situation, some luck), very powerful late if they can survive to the late game.

If someone really wanted to go with CA in this game setup, I would test it along side a few of these HG races that meet the game criteria and test it in a univerise that will give the same distance between homeworlds as the actual game.

Just my 2 cents, I could be wrong here.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Wed, 23 October 2013 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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Isn't that the challenge?

I think I agree, maybe 270 clicks of hab would be a sufficient handicap - but 300 is interesting.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Wed, 23 October 2013 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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ManicLurch wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 12:07
...With these game settings, even though no immunities are allowed, I can make a descent HG race with 1/5 habs, 19% GR...


1/5 hab, but the average value of those green planets is probably 35-40%. You'll see a 60+% planet about as often as the CA sees a 90+% planet. While you are paying resources to tform your best planets, the CA is buying infrastructure and ships and research, and he has a lot more pop room on his breeders than you do, so gets more use out of the best planets. Your growth rate on an uncrowded 60% planet (14.4%) is only 33% better than his growth rate on an uncrowded 90% planet (10.8%), and as the breeders begin to reach capacity, a higher percentage of his population is growing on better planets. By the time your second colony (third planet) reaches 25% cap, his effective growth rate is probably the same as yours. After that his growth rate pulls ahead, and stays ahead.

My goal was to use a very simple restriction to make it really really hard to play a CA. I honestly think I may not have made it hard enough.



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Thu, 24 October 2013 01:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ManicLurch is currently offline ManicLurch

 
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Your figures make sense, but I have played plenty of non immune races with habs from 1/4 to 1/6 and usually I don't have problems finding breeders. Sure it isn't as good as a race with immunity, but it isn't slow. And the HG will have more cheap techs, so I would still put my money on a HG race in this game. I am not so sure that the effective growth rate would be higher with this CA. Some planets may be 60%, but some of those 60% planets can reach 80% with just a few clicks of terraforming. I don't think a 1/5 HG played properly is a slow as you are saying with your figures.

This 12% CA race feels like a tri-immune HE with worse tech and minerals, but gates and deterraforming of enemies. Live everywhere, slow growth. If it can avoid war for the first 40-50 turns, it could do well. But with no diplomacy, can it avoid an early war? And its neighbors will know that the race is weak early. If I am a neighbor to a CA and I can't use diplomacy to benefit from its OA's, I will be looking to take it out.

I am not saying it can't be done, I am saying it doesn't seem like a good choice for this game setup.

If someone wins with this and proves me wrong, I can live with that.

And if a CA races proves competitive, but not overwhelming, then maybe someone found out a proper handicap for CA races to allow them in normal games.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Thu, 24 October 2013 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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skoormit wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 20:27

My goal was to use a very simple restriction to make it really really hard to play a CA. I honestly think I may not have made it hard enough.

Very simple it is. I'm not sure it's survivable, but I'm sure we'll find out at some point.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Thu, 24 October 2013 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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ManicLurch wrote on Thu, 24 October 2013 00:02
...And its neighbors will know that the race is weak early. If I am a neighbor to a CA and I can't use diplomacy to benefit from its OA's, I will be looking to take it out....


Aye, this is a key point. With the race restrictions in place for all races, you won't be facing a race that starts extremely fast, but I think any other race in this game is going to start out stronger than this CA for the first 30+ years. If all the players are savvy to the innate weakness of the CA in the ruleset, then the CA has to worry about early aggression. The other races might as well be QS races, compared to this CA.

But which neighbors are willing to sacrifice early investments in infrastructure to mount an offensive against the CA? Everyone has to watch their own back as well. If I'm a neighbor to this CA and I don't have any other neighbors, then yeah, I'll gear up for an early conflict. But probably I have other neighbors. Probably I'm worried that they are looking for expansion room in my area as well.

All in all, I think it makes for a very interesting strategic texture, particularly because of the no-comms rule. Smile


ManicLurch wrote on Thu, 24 October 2013 00:02

...
And if a CA races proves competitive, but not overwhelming, then maybe someone found out a proper handicap for CA races to allow them in normal games.


Hmm. In a normal game with the currently popular size/players configurations (i.e. not a ton of room per player) I can't imagine this race has much of a chance. Maybe let the CA take 5 clicks in on each hab. Or 10. Or 15.





What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Thu, 24 October 2013 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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I'd suggest just specifying e.g. 270 clicks width

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Fri, 25 October 2013 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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OT, just for reference, the password to open the AI races is "viewai".


I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Fri, 25 October 2013 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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Hi, Nmid.

I can open the .m files for any AI with the password

qq-tfi

I can then view the races and see things like experts over 1100 race wizard points in the hole.

Does your password of

viewal

open the .r files?

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Sat, 26 October 2013 04:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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XAPBob wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 21:28
magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 03:18
Regarding AI resources, the Expert AI uses race designs that are over 1000 points in the red. For a race to have less resources than them at 2420 is normal.

I knew they had excess points, I didn't realise it was *that* biased...


skoormit wrote on Thu, 24 October 2013 02:19
XAPBob wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 05:28
magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 23 October 2013 03:18
Regarding AI resources, the Expert AI uses race designs that are over 1000 points in the red. For a race to have less resources than them at 2420 is normal.

I knew they had excess points, I didn't realise it was *that* biased...


That's why I'm always in last place at 2420 against the AI?

I'd started to think I was doing something wrong...


The Expert Robotoid is a 7% 3i HE with 1/800 13/9/16/3g econ and 3.5 cheap tech (it does have 10/4/8 mines, but those aren't as noticeable in the first few years). Before the AI's braindead nature kicks in and cripples them, they will, as I said, outgrow most legal races.

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Re: Lowest possible growth rate Sun, 10 November 2013 03:07 Go to previous message
nmid

 
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Bystander wrote on Sat, 26 October 2013 05:59
Hi, Nmid.

I can open the .m files for any AI with the password

qq-tfi

I can then view the races and see things like experts over 1100 race wizard points in the hole.

Does your password of

viewal

open the .r files?


I checked out qq-tfi... and it seems that viewai works just like qq-tfi does.
I'm not sure about which .r files you are referring to though.
viewai / qq-tfi both let you open the ai .m files and then you can check the race using f8, if that's what you were referring to.

ps - Apologies for the late reply.. I haven't been checking the forums as frequently as I used to.. and I didn't get a reply notification email either Sad
Feel free to mail me or send me a chat on gtalk. I'm almost always on.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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