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HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 03:09 Go to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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HP, HG or -F[ 58 votes ]
1. HP 12 / 21%
2. HG 32 / 55%
3. -F 14 / 24%

Generally speaking which one do you go for and why?

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
regiss

 
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I generally played HG or HG/HP hybrid for sheer economical gain.
But after trying a -f in my next-to-last game, I don't know what
to think. It was so much fun and I enjoyed it very much (not
mentioning that I managed to win it economically also).

Maybe I should've voted for HG here, but -f is the way I feel right now.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 07:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hatterson is currently offline Hatterson

 
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I play HP simply because I find it to be the easiest

I find -f too hard to get used to and I have trouble continuing my growth with a HG.



"Don't be so humble - you are not that great. " - Golda Meir (1898-1978) to a visiting diplomat

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve is currently offline Steve

 
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I like HP - particularly when they start right next to me!!! Twisted Evil

I play HG though.


[Updated on: Thu, 12 June 2003 09:51]




No trees were harmed in the making of this sig. However, many electrons were terribly inconvenienced

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 09:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
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I voted -f, why may you ask? I am currently playing against the AI in a huge packed universe, remapped, with a -f IT. I found that a -f IT has a HUGE advantage over a HE race, why may you ask? simple, even with facs the HE is pretty limited in rescorces on each planet, with a -f IT you can gate all of youre ships to a certain planet, say a front lines planet that needs prtecting or sorts while a HE needs to use his engines to get there, or use an allys gate (if he/she does have any allys Laughing ). an IT race can easily defend a planet or launch an attack.


Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
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I think the real determining factor is the game set-up. I'm more likely to play an HP in a huge galaxy where there is alot of time before players start mixing things up versus in a tiny where -f will likely rule. Mediums favor HG IMHO. Large is a toss up between HPs and HGs and small both HGs and -f work well. Of course planet densisty can affect this as well.

Paladin my 2 cents



"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
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I have played more HG than HP, simply because it is easier to play especially in the later stages of the game. -f intrigues me, and I have played and testbedded many, various configurations of them. I've just never been brave enough, yet, to play one in a PBEM. Perhaps this year will be the one. Nod After I get my new laptop, ofc.

The only HP that I have played in a PBEM was a SS with ARM. It was awesome in the late stages of the game. I was regularly creating battle fleets with 95-98% cloaking using gatable Nubians. The AR race that was trying to assimilate me went nuts trying to pin me down. Yeah, he knew where my planets were, but he never knew when or where my fleets would pop up. After losing around 5 large invasion fleets and then losing a comparable number of Death Stars, he kinda decided that maybe an AR with twice the resources didn't have a decided advantage after all. Twisted Evil I've mentioned this particular game before. I must be proud. Smirk

Forgive my smirk.

My dream race, which is totally OT but HEY!, it's the way I think, would be a -f SS race with IS's grow in space capability. I always liked the idea, probably propagated by the way the original Stars! looked, where stealth is a LRT, not a PRT, and the extra cloaking devices and hulls would come from a tech tree. Cool Cool Cool Cool

Dream on ... dream on.

The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Paladin is correct regarding the effect of galaxy size/density on which racial strategy is better. I tend to prefer the HP/HG hybrid. Diplomacy is one of my core competencies, so I'm usually fairly successful in avoiding debilitating wars until my economy ramps up.

I've only played -f once, and the strategy seems to require one to go to war quite early to take advantage of the early game cheap research. Is this an accurate assessment of -f strategy?

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Thu, 12 June 2003 10:55

Paladin is correct regarding the effect of galaxy size/density on which racial strategy is better. I tend to prefer the HP/HG hybrid. Diplomacy is one of my core competencies, so I'm usually fairly successful in avoiding debilitating wars until my economy ramps up.

I've only played -f once, and the strategy seems to require one to go to war quite early to take advantage of the early game cheap research. Is this an accurate assessment of -f strategy?


That is the generally accepted, official consensus according to "common wisdom" around here. Sherlock

The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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That fact that the name of the all -f game is "Rabid Weasels in a Box" is purely coincidental and has absolutely nothing to do with the personalities of people who are suited by nature to play an -f race.


If you can't trust me, who can't you trust?

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Re: HP, HG or -F Thu, 12 June 2003 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ashlyn is currently offline Ashlyn

 
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Can someone give an example of a good hybrid?

Sherlock

I voted HP by the way, but I don't know why, I could have easily gone with HG... I play a HP at the moment, but I've won with both HG and -f - although factoryless races don't seem to work for me very well in late game (unless I've just gone wild with 200 planets or so) - i'm not saying 200 planets ain't fun or nothing.. but you want to talk about MM and worrying about the 512 fleet limit EVERY turn... I had more administrative boo boos than I ever want to have!! Nod Very Happy

Ashlyn



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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
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I find -f more fun than the other two. I've yet to win, but I've been instrumental to the course of the game, which is more than I could say when I tried my HPs.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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the 25k by 2450 mark to me is why the HG type is most popular.

HP to me has never seemed a viable choice against anything but beginners because it takes so long to become anything worth while. A HP race won't survive against a -F next door neighbour. HP needs a good 50 years to even get to a reasonable level. The other problem is their dependancy on conquering planets intact - they need to use smart bombs or they'll run into endless problems trying to develop the planet into something useable where as a HG or -F can make use of it quickly.

-F runs into MM problems the 512 fleet limit and worst of all - running out of room - a -F vs a HG of the same size.... the HG will win almost without doubt.

HG seems like the only realistic option to me 9 times out of 10. It develops quick enough to keep pace with -F races... just about. And it also has the resource abilities to take down a HP.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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My first custom races were HP designs. Not bad, I thought, until a 3% HE killed me around 2450.

I tried some -f designs fairly recently and outside of IT and CA, it just didn't work for me so well. But most importantly, I don't find early fighting with low tech garbage to be a lot of fun. NUBIANS are fun - frigates are not. Cool

HG is what I'm currently stuck on. I think HG gives you the best balance of early survival chances and long term competence.

SMALL FONTS PLEASE!


Smaller please?

Thank you. In the teeniest, tiniest, and most timid voice possible I have to confess (Forgive me Father, for I have sinned) I still enjoy the tri-immune HE best because that's what I do best, and it seems to me that by 2470 I'm far better off than anything else so long as I can avoid getting run over by all the mean nasty HG's and -f's early. I hate having to be frugal with my minerals. I hate building nothing but scouts, colonizers and freighters. I hate bussing colonists and germanium all over the damn place. And I miss my metamorph. Crying or Very Sad

Ahem! Yes, HG is the ticket! HG all the way, nothing but. Rah rah rah for the HG, that's MY favorite. Very Happy



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 08:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 13 June 2003 03:12

The other problem is their dependancy on conquering planets intact - they need to use smart bombs or they'll run into endless problems trying to develop the planet into something useable where as a HG or -F can make use of it quickly.




I played a HP CA in large galaxy and had no problems capturing planets with all the factories intact. Smart Bombs combined with groups of orbital adjusters will depopulate a planet in two turns. The OAs turn the planet red and then the planet loses the use of all but ten of its defenses. Then you not only have a planet with factories but it's teraformed when you take it. CA's make good HPs since they grow so fast anyway they can usually hold their prior to 2470 when they really get nasty.

Paladin



"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
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Ashlyn wrote on Thu, 12 June 2003 17:10

Can someone give an example of a good hybrid?


Ashlyn




A hybrid has a population efficiency of less than 1/1000 but higher than 1/2500. I played a hybrid once and it was 1/1500. I found it interesting. I had 15/8/15 factories and 15/3/12 mines. You can see that the high factory and mine efficiency meant it ramped up fairly fast and the resources per planet once fully developed were quite high. I have several times used 1/1200 to by some extra factories and mines. Most of the time however I either use 1/1000 or 1/2500 since it clarifies in my mind what I'm playing and therefore I have a clear strategy and stick to it.

Paladin Sherlock



"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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Ashlyn wrote on Thu, 12 June 2003 17:10

Can someone give an example of a good hybrid?



I played a JOAT hybrid in my first game.
If I remember correctly, it had 15/9/20/3 factories and 18% 1/1000 pop. Mines probably wern't as good (10/3/15 as a guess). And tech sucked (weapons normal, rest expensive). However with start at 4 tech, I started with a huge tech lead. The game was not ACCBBS and had sever hull limits, so con didn't have to get too high (nothing above con 8 ships I think - the actual rules limited number of items a ship could hold).

I was next to the observer, and quickly (like before 2420) stopped the expansion of an HE neighbor. That gave me a lot of room to expand and I had the tech (start at 4), and growth rate to do so.

I ended up winning the game, however the expensive tech was a pain. And I got pretty lucky in the placement, and my two early enemys got unlucky (not just that they were next to me either).



- LEit

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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Quoted from the topic in the SD forum: (I pulled it back here, because it's got nothing to do with SD)

Paladin wrote on Fri, 13 June 2003 08:56

IMHO I think this is neither hybrid, HP or HG. This is an HG that sacrificed growth rate for factories. HPs sacrifice pop efficiency for factories so this is not a hybrid to my way of thinking. I think a better term for this race would be semi-HG.

Paladin my 2 cents


IMO:
HP is maximal factories, poor pop.
HG is OK factories, good pop.
-f is no factories, good pop.

Hybrid is a range:
I call Hybrids
near maximal factories and good pop and give up something else.
You seem to be saying:
good (or better) factories and OK pop.

That's probably got some of my bias against anything other then 1/1000 pop. I like to grow fast, and the 1/1100+ doesn't pay enough. But more efficient then 1/1000 costs too much. So to me; HP is anyone dumb enough to take less efficient pop; HG is OK factories, good everything else; -f is no factories, great everything else; Hybrid is good factories, poor somewhere else.



- LEit

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 13 June 2003 02:12

the 25k by 2450 mark to me is why the HG type is most popular.


Yes, this is true. However, I have been able to reach the same goal (in a testbed, mind you) with a modified HP, ala JC design, that sacrifices total resource ability for speed of ramp, keeping the pop growth higher than the usual HP design, etc. It also keeps the germ needs down a bit also, making fleet building easier in the early game. I forget the name of the NG thread, but it was a very interesting read. His playing around came up with a, IMO, playable design where the HP uses basic remote mining, low tech research requirements, and modified factory settings to get an HP with a quick ramp-up and quick tech ramp-up. The biggest drawback was the need for CE to help pay for it all. Crying or Very Sad Starting hab range stayed around 1 in 5.

If I can find it, I'll tell you how to find it. Cool

The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
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Very Happy Found it quicker than I thought I would.

The post is titled "Flexible Race Template for non-econ designs" and I located it, if you need help, by searching "cawley sincerely tech thief hp".

You can locate it at http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cawley+sincerely+tech+thie f+hp+group:rec.games.computer.stars&hl=en&lr=&ie =UTF-8&group=rec.games.computer.stars&selm=701ojs%24 dbm%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com&rnum=4

The first example race was using IT 'cause it's so expensive.

IT
NRSE, CE, LSP
0.20/4.88 g, -148/148 C, 66/96 mR
19% pop growth
1/2500 pop
15/7/18 3 G factories
10/3/16 mines
weapons and con cheap, bio expensive, rest normal

I need to try this one in a game, too. I can see that my new laptop is going to get a real workout when I finally get my hands on it, assuming that I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch.

I want it and I want it now!!! Bounce Bounce Bounce Bounce Bounce Bounce Bounce

Respectfully,
The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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Try spending what you must spend to get 15/8/20 factories and see what happens to your ramp (thanks again Omni).


If you can't trust me, who can't you trust?

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
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Crusader wrote on Fri, 13 June 2003 12:18


The first example race was using IT 'cause it's so expensive.

IT
NRSE, CE, LSP
0.20/4.88 g, -148/148 C, 66/96 mR
19% pop growth
1/2500 pop
15/7/18 3 G factories
10/3/16 mines
weapons and con cheap, bio expensive, rest normal

I need to try this one in a game, too. I can see that my new laptop is going to get a real workout when I finally get my hands on it, assuming that I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch.


The Crusader Angel


To me this is the classic HP monster race and I've played a race almost exactly like this one several times. The resource output is huge but you run out of minerals at your worlds and have to rely on minerals from conquered planets in the late gate.

Are you suggesting most HPs don't use 18% or 19% growth rates. I think all races should have this rate whether they are HP, HG or -f. I'd like to hear other opinions here but I never go below 18%.

Paladin



"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
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You want MY opinions? What a unique experience for me, what being the self-appointed comic relief for several game forums and all. Wink

It is my belief, from what I have seen by lurking the NG for several years, that most folks choose (or believe that they should choose) lower growth rates for their HP designs, attempting to balance growth rate to their factory-building as closely as possible. It is my belief that a "classical" HP race will attempt to do so. And that they will have taken all expensive research, well, with cheap weapons probably, and dedicated as much as possible into their factory settings to optimize resources per world. Sherlock

Garshk! Did all that come out of MY mouth? Yey

The "traditional" HP race, from way back in the Stone Age of the 90's Smile was not at all concerned with reaching 25k by 2450. It was concerned with reaching 100k by 2470, or some such high value later in the game. You might be tolerant of only 10k at 2450 in order to get that very high value a few years later, playing the diplomatic game and crossing your fingers in the hopes of surviving while waiting to reach that point in the game when you were "READY!"

Am I wrong here? Confused

The one HP SS race that I played had facs around 15/9/23 or something like it. Only weapons were cheap and my pop growth rate was somewhere like 16% or 17%. With "decent" mines plus ARM plus SS mineral-stealing plus waiting until the enemy came to me, I never came close to running out of minerals (compared to some of my HG attempts). Remember that battle "scrap" from planet orbit falls to the surface. My biggest problem was having enough freighters handy to divvy out my spoils to my production centers.

If you regularly design your HP races with high pop growth rates, then you have to set your factory specs so that you can keep up. Well, you don't HAVE to, but it is wiser to do so. Nod To do that, you have to lower the cost of the factories, which means you will not be able to afford to build as many. Of course, you COULD make all your research expensive and apply those points to number of factories built.

Don't you just absolutely LOVE this game?
Nod Nod Nod Nod

Anyways, that's the take on the "classic" HP from a VERY old-timer. Thanks for asking.

And, by the way, we really do need to play a game together someday. Palidan and The Crusader. We sound like an old 50's TV show. Cool Well, maybe you more than me.

Respectfully,
The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ron is currently offline Ron

 
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Crusader wrote on Fri, 13 June 2003 16:25

You want MY opinions? What a unique experience for me, what being the self-appointed comic relief for several game forums and all. Wink


Oh? I thought that was BlueTurbit's job. Rolling Eyes



Ron Miller
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Re: HP, HG or -F Fri, 13 June 2003 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
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I almost invariably take 20% PGR if I have a -f IT.
Nobody else can keep pop balanced well enough to keep the growth going, or can afford it.

I suppose a -f IS might as well, but I don't play IS much (read: at all.)

Other than that, I've never played with other than 19% PGR.

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