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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Wed, 05 March 2003 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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The bulk of my own multiplayer game experience is as a 3% tri-immune HE. I'm not going to say I think this is the best race. But this is how I myself have come to choose IFE and NOT NRSE.

If you've ever tried a 3% tri-immune HE, you'll know that with such a low growth, you very nearly get more RW points than you can spend. You max out your factories, your pop efficiency, your mines, your tech, and you still have scads of points left. No need to take LRT's for points; you take them LRT's only if you want them. Everyone wants IFE; there's no downside and actually, it's not all that expensive (at least, not when you have a couple hundred or more RW points you're looking to use with everything else already maxed out). Want ISB? Why not? Want Ultimate recycling? Go ahead. The same goes for NAS, OBRM, etc. RW points are not an issue, so one decides on these LRT's purely on their merits. OBRM, you better believe it! NAS? I dunno, maybe. I like pen-scanners and without NAS I can eventually exceed the 560 ly planetary scanner range, so forget it. Want Low Starting Population? Heh, NOT. Cool

So then I look at NRSE, and I figure I have cheap propulsion research, and no gates. The ONLY incentive to take NRSE then since I don't need RW points is the tech 11 warp 10 engine. Considering the cost and mass of non-scoop engines along with everything else, I decide that one engine just isn't worth the trade-off. And I can certainly afford to 'have everything' and choose what other races consider "too expensive an option", because I've sold my soul to the devil - With growth as low as 3%, you don't have to take any OTHER handicaps.

So, there's your answer from a very limited perspective, but a valid one nevertheless. There's at least one instance where RW points are just NO consideration.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 06 March 2003 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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zoid wrote on Wed, 05 March 2003 22:26

The bulk of my own multiplayer game experience is as a 3% tri-immune HE. I'm not going to say I think this is the best race. But this is how I myself have come to choose IFE and NOT NRSE.

If you've ever tried a 3% tri-immune HE, you'll know that with such a low growth, you very nearly get more RW points than you can spend. You max out your factories, your pop efficiency, your mines, your tech, and you still have scads of points left. No need to take LRT's for points; you take them LRT's only if you want them. Everyone wants IFE; there's no downside and actually, it's not all that expensive (at least, not when you have a couple hundred or more RW points you're looking to use with everything else already maxed out). Want ISB? Why not? Want Ultimate recycling? Go ahead. The same goes for NAS, OBRM, etc. RW points are not an issue, so one decides on these LRT's purely on their merits. OBRM, you better believe it! NAS? I dunno, maybe. I like pen-scanners and without NAS I can eventually exceed the 560 ly planetary scanner range, so forget it. Want Low Starting Population? Heh, NOT. Cool

So then I look at NRSE, and I figure I have cheap propulsion research, and no gates. The ONLY incentive to take NRSE then since I don't need RW points is the tech 11 warp 10 engine. Considering the cost and mass of non-scoop engines along with everything else, I decide that one engine just isn't worth the trade-off. And I can certainly afford to 'have everything' and choose what other races consider "too expensive an option", because I've sold my soul to the devil - With growth as low as 3%, you don't have to take any OTHER handicaps.

So, there's your answer from a very limited perspective, but a valid one nevertheless. There's at least one instance where RW points are just NO consideration.


No doubt you are right. No doubt also this is a VERY limited perspective (PRT and even suboptimal race design specific). With HE the Fuel Mizer makes little sense since you get a race-specific great engine from the start. And this 3% gives you so many points you just don't know what to do with them.

Side note: 3% HE won't do any good against competent players. Just too slow. So... RW points are always a consideration. Stars is quite well balanced (some few exceptions) and there is no situation where you can just buy whatever you want and have a really competitive race.

Now a good HE design in a the correct universe size (I would guess Medium in this case) should be able to research the galaxy scoop quite fast, and given the small planetary economy (being halved compared to others), it indeed is a good option since your big ships will need to be quite cheap to be able to build 1 of them per year. I'm little experienced in HE so I just wonder if in the late game if a HE has not essentially won the game, does it matter if he gets the Galaxy Scoop? His enemies are now gathering light Nubians very fast through gates and are going to smash him, aren't they? Wink

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 06 March 2003 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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Try making freighters out of mini-colonizers with settler's delight engines. 4 with cargo pods and 6 with fuel tanks lets you zip around at warp 9 and gives you a fairly cheap freighter with 30K capacity. The only two pop efficiency settings that really make economic (RW pointwise) sense are 1/1000 and 1/2500. The problem with your 3% HE is that once your Fac/Mines max out in relation to your Pop you can only build those cheap factories and efficient mines as fast as your pop grows (6%). So a 19% HG is gonna blow by you at 2-3 times your speed. Stars games are won by the people who can grow the fastest and have the most money to spend on nice shiny guns. A 4% HE is really only capable of maybe 12-13K by 2450. 5 and 6 percenters are monsterable (25k by 2450) but your 3% HE is going to be a pleasant snack for your nearest neighbor. Having all the toys you want is nice but nothing in Stars is free. The price of those toys is slow growth followed by quick death. Try a 4%er with pop eff of 1000 and see how much faster you grow. Then try a 5. You should still be able to have 15/8/21 facs and maybe 14-15/3/21-25 mines depending upon wether you can live with NAS or not. As your next experiment try a 6% HP 1/2500 15/7/21 and maybe 12/3/20 mines. It will require some self restraint but you should be able to Monster the 6% HP comfortably. Hold your HW at 25% until every planet in 1 years range has been colonized then let it grow to 180 (even 200K is allright). Start colonizing everything in 2 years travel time. As the 1st planets that you colonize grow enough to start exporting their own pop repeat the cycle. When all worlds within 3 turns have been colonized, backfill your HW. This is the only planet that you ever want to be maxed Pop wise (for the non depleting mines). Try these things out and then see if your 3% HE looks as good to you as it does now.

I hope this proves to be of some assistance. By the way, nothing that I've said is original to me. Look up the stars newsgroup on google and read Jason Cawley, Barry Kearns and Varn as they all have interesting things to say about HEs.



If you can't trust me, who can't you trust?

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 06 March 2003 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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*sigh*

My opening paragraph said I'm not suggesting the 3% tri-immune HE race is the best race. I only mentioned it as a specific instance for selecting IFE and not NRSE, and concluded that it was from a very limited perspective. Now everyone wants to explain to me that my race design sucks, and why. Laughing

So, thanks for all the pointers. Where were all you geniuses 4 or 5 years ago when anyone playing an ultra-low growth HE hid their PRT because they were so feared? That's when I used to play it; I've only recently returned to Stars. Anyway, the topic is about IFE and NRSE, not HE's or growth factors.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 06 March 2003 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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zoid wrote on Thu, 06 March 2003 17:54

*sigh*

My opening paragraph said I'm not suggesting the 3% tri-immune HE race is the best race. I only mentioned it as a specific instance for selecting IFE and not NRSE, and concluded that it was from a very limited perspective. Now everyone wants to explain to me that my race design sucks, and why. Laughing


So why are you posting? Mad2 I am not asking if I can select unplayable settings in the race wizard! I am asking about reasons for taking this option in real games. Thank you for your useless contribution.

Quote:

So, thanks for all the pointers. Where were all you geniuses 4 or 5 years ago when anyone playing an ultra-low growth HE hid their PRT because they were so feared? That's when I used to play it; I've only recently returned to Stars. Anyway, the topic is about IFE and NRSE, not HE's or growth factors.


I'm one of the "geniuses" and I don't see what is your point, unless it is to try to offend. I think you are talking about 1995/96 which is a bit before. Mind you, when someone posts a message with useless information (I'm polite), it is quite normal that someone elses pops in and explain why it is wrong, because otherwise the newbies around here could take it for valid knowledge. You don't have to take it personally, even if by courtesy posters refer to "you".

Regards,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Fri, 07 March 2003 05:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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yucaf wrote on Thu, 06 March 2003 18:06

So why are you posting? Mad2 I am not asking if I can select unplayable settings in the race wizard! I am asking about reasons for taking this option in real games. Thank you for your useless contribution.

Wow. That seems very unkind. I don't recall ever representing myself as some kind of expert, or even a good player - I doubt anyone has said as often as I have that I'm not as good as everyone else. I'm really offended at the venom in your post; after tossing it around in my head for a couple hours when I should be sleeping, I'm wishing I'd never come back. My mistake, I guess, was thinking that this was a forum of discussion for any Stars enthusiast to participate in - I must have missed the little sticky which advises anyone not on a competing level with Jason Cawley to keep silent.

As for the newbies you mentioned, I'm probably as close as you're going to get nowadays. You're right about the timeline of my play being about 1995/1996 rather than 3-5 years ago. I didn't realize so much time had passed since I played, but now that I think on it, that's about right. When I left Stars to play other things, low growth HE's were considered unbeatable by many. When my interest in Stars returned a few months ago, I immediately joined a game, and the game is just now winding down. I played the 3% tri-immune HE. I'd never even heard of 25k by 2450, nor Jason Cawley. Now I know of Jason Cawley, and 25k by 2450, and that my 3% HE isn't quite all I thought it was years (even months) ago. My point when I asked where you geniuses were back then, was supposed to be a lighthearted crack that you could have told me that years ago and I would've been ahead of my time, but apparently not clear enough. It was not meant to offend.

I don't think I'm ever going to feel like opening my mouth on this forum again in any such discussions because I feel so bad right now, but the last thing I want to say is that just because you think a low-growth HE is the stupidest thing in the world, that doesn't mean people don't play them. In the game I'm playing, my 3% HE is in 3rd place, and isn't going to win but it wasn't a washout either. The guy in first place is a 4% HE. Of course, it's a beginners game - I'm sure nobody there really merits any respect from the likes of you and Jason Cawley. But I think that the original statement you've so harshly berated me for making is legitimate, not "useless information". It wasn't meant to be "information" of textbook caliber - and I didn't know I was intruding on some scientific factual analysis based on only the optimum PRT and LRT settings wherein the mere mention of what someone might do with a low growth HE was considered altogether invalid.

I won't post anything else that might confuse the other newbies as something to emulate (because I won't be posting anymore), but you really needn't worry about them. We can tell who knows something and who doesn't. But if they get castigated for opening their mouth when they participate, they probably won't hang around anyways - problem solved, right? And just as a favor to you, I'll change my tagline so anything they happen to read with my name on it will feature a disclaimer about the worthiness of my opinion.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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hey Fri, 07 March 2003 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ron is currently offline Ron

 
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yucaf, zoid...

Gentlebeings! Step forward. Quit glaring at each other, and listen to me.

We are all part of the Stars! community, and *each* has something to contribute. Flaming that really hurts someone is not helpful to the free flow of information in this community, and I don't like it.

A bit of teasing, and poking is fine, as long as the other person can take it, and if you put in smilies " Very Happy " to let people know you're teasing.

Zoid, I appreciate your honesty in that you admit you're wrong when it is pointed out and explained. You may want to include phrases like "in my opinion" and "in my experience" in your future posts, -- and I do hope you continue posting.

yucaf, I got the impression from your post that you were upset. There are many ways to express frustration, most of which can be done in a way that wouldn't hurt someone. I sincerely hope your desire was not to hurt Zoid. You did make a point in your post, but IMO way too strongly. Please be more tactful in the future, and remember that "what goes around, comes around" and "do to others what you would want them to do to you".

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as long as it is expressed tactfully and without desire to hurt anyone.



Ron Miller
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Re: hey Fri, 07 March 2003 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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On my side I wasn't in any way trying to claim some sort of superiority. Trust me, anyone who's played me will back me on this Rolling Eyes I read your post "once over lightly" and responded to what I'd thought you meant not what you said. Of course if you really really want to hold a grudge........ perhaps we could settle it on the field of dishonour Angel My tri-immune vs yours? (tone of utter and sweet reason).

Oh, I'm sorry, did I forget to mention that you are a Low-Bellied, Yellow-Down, Four-Timing Two Flusher. Now, perhaps, if you can bring yourself to stop hitting my gauntlet with your face, we can settle this like civilized beings <bad, wicked, evil grin>

Love and Pop Drops


[Updated on: Fri, 07 March 2003 16:06]




If you can't trust me, who can't you trust?

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Re: hey Fri, 07 March 2003 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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Ron wrote on Fri, 07 March 2003 12:00


yucaf, I got the impression from your post that you were upset. There are many ways to express frustration, most of which can be done in a way that wouldn't hurt someone. I sincerely hope your desire was not to hurt Zoid. You did make a point in your post, but IMO way too strongly. Please be more tactful in the future, and remember that "what goes around, comes around" and "do to others what you would want them to do to you".

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as long as it is expressed tactfully and without desire to hurt anyone.


My sincere apologies to all and in particular to Zoid. I was not trying to have him "quit" the forum. I was, as Ron said, very upset at the mention of "you geniuses out there" following the "I knew it was useless but I posted it"... Some bad day at work yesterday and I'm not the best of diplomats out there as well.

Now, reacting saying "I'm out of there" just because one idiot is flaming you is not very good way to tackle the problem. This kind of things happen (good old RGCS Rolling Eyes ) and it even happens in real life with real persons in front of you. I don't have any superior right here on the forum, and you should try yourself to shut my big mouth in a diplomatic way that will have me think twice before posting. I know it's good for me Wink

Again, my sincere apologies,

YucaF

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Re: hey Fri, 07 March 2003 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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yucaf wrote on Fri, 07 March 2003 20:38

and you should try yourself to shut my big mouth in a diplomatic way that will have me think twice before posting. I know it's good for me Wink

Very Happy Well, since you brought it up...speaking of french fries...
Yez, Yuka frito, your manners are no better than the crimson defedation craving from the eye pores of a Gaazhogian Ugly. And believe me, they are ugly. I ran into one once on one of my outland trade routes. And they are ugly. And bad breath. Woosh! Limburger cheese! Sad
"I've heard of bad breath, Ugly, but you could knock a buzzard off a poopoo wagon."

....what Ron said is true:
"what goes around, comes around" and "do to others what you would want them to do to you".

Look already it is coming around, even after your apology. And I am doing to you what you would want me to do to you. Very Happy

And also "what goes up must come down". And "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".
And the best of all, for the Stars!
"Do unto others before they do unto you." Confused Say what?

And
"I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather....
...Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car...."
(This doesn't belong here with the rest but I thought it deserved mentioning.)Rolling Eyes


[Updated on: Fri, 07 March 2003 23:43]




BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sun, 09 March 2003 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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yucaf wrote on Mon, 03 March 2003 17:16

Micha wrote on Sat, 01 March 2003 16:21

Was that a rethorical question? Smile If not than my aswer is: I have. The one time that I played with ramscoops (SD race) I did get to the Galaxy Scoop, a wonderfull engine indeed.
In the end (2514) my techs were 25/26/20/26/26/16 and I was just about to get eny26 and bio17,



So you took IFE and not NRSE. What was your race design, or at least, the cost on Propulsion? What was the thinking behind this choice? This is no sarcasm, I really would like to understand what was the reason because I myself never find spare points to make that expensive choice instead of a (IMO) better one.

Thanks,

YucaF


Finally found some time to dig up that race (2 year old already) and give the specs:

NAME: The Dead Minds
PRT: SD
LRT: IFE, OBRM, NAS, LSP
HAB: 1 in 5
grav 0.31 to 3.68 (centered and wide)
temp -128 to 136 (centered and wide)
rad 48 to 84 (shifted to the right)
GROWTH: 19%
ECONOMY: (simple HG)
1/1000
12/9/16g
10/3/16
TECH:
weap cheap
con, prop normal
eny, elec, bio expensive
Box "start at 3" checked

Universe was: medium, packed, farther, ABBS, No random events, clumping. 10 players.

As you can see nothing special, weap cheap like everyone else, normal economy, normal mining, OBRM, rad to the right to find an ally with rad to the left.
Looking back I consider the "start at 3" a waste. Rest is fine. NAS and LSP is just a matter of taste and can be discussed under another topic. Wink
BTW I got 24k in 2450. Wink

Like I said it was the only time I played with ramscoops, it was also my first SD (became my favorite PRT) and I had read somewhere that SD were one of the races that "needed" ramscoops, reason was to power their huge and heavy SMLs and second reason to send them on covert missions. (Other races that "needed" ramscoops were SS and races that relied on heavy remote miners.)

So that's the main reason I chose to go with rams. Didn't build a single SML during the entire game! Laughing But I liked the fact that my MMLs could have a save warp10. Another advantage was that with a FM on your MMLs you need a fuel tank in the back but with the warp10 ramscoop you can put a cloack there instead. Smile Works wonders against interceptors! Twisted Evil

But now I know SD can do well without rams.
[Without SMLs too, they lay too big minefields and you can't use those big fields to make precision detonations, also they can't get 98% cloacked so I don't bother with that either, IMHO you go 98% or you don't cloack. But this belongs in the SD thread.]

Anyway in some cases (with cheaper bio for example) you might get bio12 before getting prop16 and that means you can already design your final MMLs with the 130 dispenser but you still have to wait for your engines ... OTOH you probably go for prop16 first since you want warp10 capable ships before "just" another better minelayer ... Grin This was the case in my game. My doom CCs were equiped with the prop12 engine (weap16 CCs had the prop9 engine), my BBs came with the prop16 engine, also waited to get con16 first and put the armor on my BBs Shocked Yes, and that was also the last time I played without RS Grin Gate-able BBs rule!

regards,
mch
...

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icon5.gif  doubt Mon, 10 March 2003 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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BlueTurbit wrote on Fri, 07 March 2003 23:41


Very Happy Well, since you brought it up...speaking of french fries...
Yez, Yuka frito, your manners are no better than the crimson defedation craving from the eye pores of a Gaazhogian Ugly. And believe me, they are ugly. I ran into one once on one of my outland trade routes. And they are ugly. And bad breath. Woosh! Limburger cheese! Sad
"I've heard of bad breath, Ugly, but you could knock a buzzard off a poopoo wagon."


<snip>

I read and read again your message and I must recognize I don't know exactly how to take it and what you mean. I will put this on my approximate English and my little knowledge of popular expressions in English. However the point about "french fries" and smelly cheeses looks like a xenophobic attack, if you would know I'm French, which I don't think I mentionned here but is known on RGCS. I hope it's not the case, but if it is, I would ask you to restrain from that. I'm not very proud of my performance above Embarassed , when I say I apologize I'm sincere. Even if you don't believe me it does not justify this. Not even if my flaming corresponds to the quite justified French fame Wink

And please Zoid come back! I realize you are very appreciated here (I looked for your past messages), and I promise I have no special interest in banning you from anywhere. I did not even imagine that a grown up adult could react this way, but believe me, now I computed that in my little brain.

Hope I'm wrong on all the line Confused

YucaF

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icon10.gif  Limburger? (Re: doubt) Mon, 10 March 2003 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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yucaf wrote on Mon, 10 March 2003 17:42

BlueTurbit wrote on Fri, 07 March 2003 23:41

Woosh! Limburger cheese! Sad


<snip>
However the point about "french fries" and smelly cheeses looks like a xenophobic attack, ...
<snip>



Hey and what about me! I'm a "Limburger", Limburg is a provence in Belgium and the people who live there are called Limburger Smile
But I don't take it as an insult Smile

However I must admit that non-English people have trouble understanding the fine humor within the language itself, better be carefull with that.

All joking here and not trying to tell anyone what they should do! Just brining an intermezzo,

regards,
mch


[Updated on: Mon, 10 March 2003 16:46]

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Mon, 10 March 2003 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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Micha wrote on Sun, 09 March 2003 05:47


Finally found some time to dig up that race (2 year old already) and give the specs:

NAME: The Dead Minds
PRT: SD
LRT: IFE, OBRM, NAS, LSP
HAB: 1 in 5
grav 0.31 to 3.68 (centered and wide)
temp -128 to 136 (centered and wide)
rad 48 to 84 (shifted to the right)
GROWTH: 19%
ECONOMY: (simple HG)
1/1000
12/9/16g
10/3/16
TECH:
weap cheap
con, prop normal
eny, elec, bio expensive
Box "start at 3" checked

Universe was: medium, packed, farther, ABBS, No random events, clumping. 10 players.
<snip>

Thanks Micha for that good message and for your research (I'm glad to be back on the subject Smile )

It seems to be quite a good design and it worked well for you at least. I also read somewhere on the Newsgroup that SD should take ramscoops (that's what I did). However in a medium packed I would not have liked to have this NAS. But it's quite easy to compensate with unchecking "start at 3" and some other adjustment.
By what you say, it doesn't seem to have been extremely relevant to get the Galaxy Scoop. At least you don't mention it explicitely, but you do said that getting the warp10 capable engine (you mention prop16) had you waiting before building the next generation of layers. Did you wait for the GS (prop19) to build ships or did you just started designing with it when it became "naturally" available. This is the key point of the thread I would say.
You don't mention either the utility of the Fuel Mizer but I guess it's because it's an obvious one Smile ...fast start.

I still have one doubt: with so many generation of "good engines", I mean "break points" (I would see 3 in this case: Fuel Mizer, Ramscoop Pr16, Galaxy Scoop), how did you manage not to get short on designs? With SD, I seem to be always limited because there are 3 types of mines and each upgrade is a pain, especially if you are at war and need combat designs.

Looks like SD is the best option for the IFE not NRSE combo, in particular because 1-you have some extra points, 2-you need to compete at the beginning with fast start economic monsters and 3-later on you have so many ships in space and all the dodging thing with the layers that you need to have complete fuel autonomy.

Regards,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Tue, 11 March 2003 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BackBlast is currently offline BackBlast

 
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yucaf wrote on Mon, 10 March 2003 17:37


Looks like SD is the best option for the IFE not NRSE combo, in particular because 1-you have some extra points, 2-you need to compete at the beginning with fast start economic monsters and 3-later on you have so many ships in space and all the dodging thing with the layers that you need to have complete fuel autonomy.

Regards,

YucaF


I think IFE and NOT NRSE has a wider application than this. First off, NRSE does not provide that many points. It seems to provide 53 when you have 4 or less LRTs. First candidate for not checking NRSC is the race who has selected many LRTs. I know most people advocate against this. But certain ideas require certain LRTs to pull off. Once you hit 5 LRTs, suddenly the point boost for NRSC is even more minimal.

The next factor in this selection, is your economic settings. Rams are much cheaper in resources, they are lighter, then cost less iron, and more germ. So, a -F I think would be a very good candidate for not selecting NRSE because it places so little value on the germ. Using germ for engines and less iron seems like a good idea, not to mention the fuel benefits and fewer resources needed. An HP will probably not want to use the germ-expensive scoops on a warship they are planning on mass producing. So I'd say an HP is a good candidate for checking NRSE.

There are extreme ideas like the WM I posted in the WM forum. I checked IFE and CE, and purposely left NRSE unchecked. Half price scoops are very cheap to build, allowing for large numbers of ships to be produced with smaller hulls. WM movement bonus more than makes up for the movement deficiency of scoops as any one tech level. WM bonus of 25% cheaper weapons makes it especially scary.

There is this Green Engine that everyone seems to like? Rolling Eyes I see no reason why such a fan base surrounds this engine. It's HORRIBLE. You do realize that any hull you put this engine on is essentially doubling the cost of the hull to build (or more!)? It's not entirely true with the BB but it's pretty darn close! "Oh, but it goes warp 10!" Big deal! Your chaff can't! Chaff is a bunch of fuel eating ships that can barely keep up with a war-fleet at warp 9. Yeah, some will move chaff at warp 10 with the main fleet for a year or 2. Never for extended periods of time. The cost of this engine is just too high for 1 or 2 years at warp 10. On a positive note for it, it allows you to get decent beamer BB speeds on a non-WM race. But I would definitely be leaning toward the scoops, even at a few tech levels later. The research will be made up for in short order with a cheaper engine. And if one doesn't use the green engine, you have to wait a long long time for warp 10 (with NRSE). Evil evil bad bad.

Now we have the case where races keep ships in deep space for very extended periods of time. I believe these PRTs are SS, SD, HE. If you select any of these PRTs and are thinking of selecting NRSE, I strongly suggest rethinking that choice. SS and SD are probably obvious, HE maybe not so much.. With HE, you get a cool engine to start making IFE a choice rather than mandatory. But when you don't want to be building mini colonizers any more, you'll want something that moves at warp 9 reasonably that isn't insanely expensive. And you can have your own terror ships with the meta morph, nice that it can run forever. Not to mention basic warship designs to protect your empire. Since you can't use the FM, rams just make sense.

Engines are required on every hull. You can't build a ship without an engine. If there was a LRT that said '15% cheaper ship hulls', would it not be attractive? That's basically what this LRT is! This is an important issue, more so than 50 points in the race wizard. Zoid's remarks about points being negligible are very valid (never mind the crazy race, I play crazy races all the time, they are fun Very Happy ). If I need scoops, it's not a matter of how many points it costs, I take them. I once bought into the 'always take IFE and NRSE' advice,
...

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Wed, 12 March 2003 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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BackBlast wrote on Tue, 11 March 2003 14:05

yucaf wrote on Mon, 10 March 2003 17:37


Looks like SD is the best option for the IFE not NRSE combo, in particular because 1-you have some extra points, 2-you need to compete at the beginning with fast start economic monsters and 3-later on you have so many ships in space and all the dodging thing with the layers that you need to have complete fuel autonomy.

Regards,

YucaF


I think IFE and NOT NRSE has a wider application than this. First off, NRSE does not provide that many points. It seems to provide 53 when you have 4 or less LRTs. First candidate for not checking NRSC is the race who has selected many LRTs. I know most people advocate against this. But certain ideas require certain LRTs to pull off. Once you hit 5 LRTs, suddenly the point boost for NRSC is even more minimal.



Yes, and I would add that my remark was only valid PRT wise. The most important factor amongst all IMHO is the universe definition, as Stalwart underlined very well in this thread. You don't want those high tech ramscoops in a tiny or small because the game will be over before getting them Rolling Eyes More a rule of thumb that a strict law, of course. And the fuel mizer is a ramscoop too Smug

Now the argument on the race points, the cost of NRSE itself is a bit larger than that: it's not only the cost of NRSE (you did make a point about the number of LRTs), it's the cost of Propulsion research as well. If you go NRSE you probably will take it expensive and you won't research beyond 12 (probably). It also helps you to choose Grav immune. So there is no black and white answer to that question, it's a question of universe size, race design and personal tastes. I'm much more convinced now after all that discussion that ramscoops are quite interesting and not so difficult to get. I was one of those IFE+NRSE fans and now I have discovered that Stars! has other facets that I still would have to discover if I would continue playing. This game is rich and after reading the reviews on MOO3 I won't change my point of view for some time yet Laughing

Cheers,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 15 March 2003 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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I'm a big fan of IFE, simply for the high speed capabilities for the Fule Mizer, research it, maybe go for gates, but otherwise quit propulsion until you want to build war cruisers. NRSE is something I often take since I like both the points and the warp 10 engine early on.

As HE I haven't tested many races with IFE, I use mini-colonizer variants to speed things up usually (fuel pods=boosters, cargo pods=freight, and the obvious one)

The speed increase from the FM is absolutely wonderful, it really is an unbeatable early game engine, and I must say that the 15% fuel savings come in handy, especially with NRSE.
Haven't really been on autohost for too long so I'm not posting very in depth (have I ever?)



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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Mon, 17 March 2003 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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A little off subject but I always take IFE and NRSE or neither.

As for ramscoops I tend to use the rad ramscoop lots. This is because I like to take Rad immune for a couple of reasons....

1. No-one takes rad immune... intersettling potential Very Happy
2. The other hab ranges have values that are generally near the middle, radiation is evenly spread. Take full advantage of an immunity by being immune in the widespread and central in the centralised habs.

Other wise I stick to the warp 8 free and warp 10 capable ramscoops. Only in long and drawn out games to i reach the best 2 engines, of which I mostly use the ramscoop for attacking ships and the (far better bar scooping) engine for defensive ships.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Fri, 02 May 2003 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

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NRSE provides too many points.


"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Fri, 02 May 2003 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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Paladin wrote on Fri, 02 May 2003 09:11

NRSE provides too many points.

Laughing In my humble opinion it doesn't offer anywhere near enough to make up for the handicaps, in most cases. And anytime I try to take it, I don't get any points to put where I want, because then I think...

"With this LRT I really need IFE". There goes all the points I got for NRSE, and then some. Sad

So now I think "Gee, now I have even less points, I guess I could go with expensive propulsion research to get some points back. Either that or cheap engi..." (That thought is vetoed before it's finished.) So, add another expensive tech field. Now I have propulsion research costing me 75% extra. Sad

After doing that, I think, "Man, trying to get my gravity terraforming maxed is going to be a nightmare, but if I don't my habs are going to be crap! I better take gravity immunity." There go all my points again. Crying or Very Sad

I find NRSE defining my whole race and eliminating choices, not giving me any, and in the end what do I have? A race that spends LOTS of extra resources and minerals on EVERY ship featuring bulky and expensive engines that are dead in space if I run out of fuel, relying too much on the FM engine throughout the game, with gravity immunity just like everyone else (when radiation immunity gives better hab results for the same points), and I have less points wherever I originally had wanted to put them. Evil or Very Mad

I really hate that LRT.

Rolling Eyes Then again, maybe "hate" is too strong a word, a word that I should reserve for the "cheap engines" LRT. I know lots of people like it at least for some applications, but every time I tried it I simply couldn't stand the fleets not moving 9 times out of 10. (I know it's a 1/10 chance but I seem to have real bad luck with it.) Trying to exceed warp 6 most often results in longer transit times than if I had just resigned myself to a warp 6 speed limit in the first place. That's just... MADDENING! Crazy



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 03 May 2003 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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I think Zoid's lookin at it from the wrong angle.

Most people who take IFE take NRSE to claw back some points. It's not a case of people pro-actively taking NRSE and then having to take IFE to make up for it.

Any race that can research a reasonable ram scoop engine quick enough (IT, AR, any -F and HE are good examples) shouldn't really take either... unless they have propulsion tech expensive.

A nice little trick when I'm IT is to take Radiation immunity (the best immunity IMHO) and neither IFE or NRSE, then research to tech 6 in propulsion and bang... the radiation ram scoop. A sweet little engine for the early game... granted it's warp 9 capability is non-existent but it's a better engine than the fuel mizer for pretty much everything bar scouts and the fuel x-ports. But this is a different arguement.


NRSE is something taken to offset IFE. I mean lets face it... and race that doesn't want to research propulsion NEEDS the IFE of it's gotta be an IT (why the hell would an IT NOT research propulsion????????). NRSE is just something that doesn't hurt too much to any race that plans to mainly use the mizer for a long long time and helps get some points back.

my 2 cents

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 03 May 2003 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 03 May 2003 03:35

Any race that can research a reasonable ram scoop engine quick enough (IT, AR, any -F and HE are good examples) shouldn't really take either... unless they have propulsion tech expensive.

NRSE is something taken to offset IFE. I mean lets face it... and race that doesn't want to research propulsion NEEDS the IFE of it's gotta be an IT (why the hell would an IT NOT research propulsion????????). NRSE is just something that doesn't hurt too much to any race that plans to mainly use the mizer for a long long time and helps get some points back.


Any way you want to arrange the priorities, there seems to be a tendency to take IFE, NRSE, expensive prop research, and gravity immunity as a package. And that's quite a package, with a net cost of 547 RW points. What do you gain in the end?

ADVANTAGES:
1) 15% better fuel economy
2) FM engine (with expensive prop research forget the galaxy scoop)
3) Perfect gravity habs at any planet
4) No need to terraform gravity
5) Early warp 10 capable engine
6) One additional starting tech in propulsion

DISADVANTAGES:
1) -547 RW points!
2) Bulky, expensive engines make bulky, expensive ships
3) No fuel scooping
4) No tech trade possiblity with propulsion
5) Too often, others share the same immunity as you, limiting it's value.
6) You've used 2 LRT's, and more LRT's may cost more.

Obviously it's a matter of personal opinion and choice, tailored by the scenario, the PRT you choose and your intended strategy to win. However, I just think I could gain more advantage with less disadvantages by using those 547 RW points in a different way.

Most of the points used in the package above and most of the real benefit comes from the gravity immunity, but if many others take the same package the immunity doesn't give you any hab advantage. The immunity itself only costs 572 points. For an offset gain of 25 points comes the rest of the package attached to it, limiting your engines and crippling propulsion research,only giving the FM engine and 15% better fuel efficiency (which I can't say I've ever noticed being that critical). The value of the FM is short lived, since any other scoop engine is better both in fuel-less travel, and fuel scooping ability. Ever notice how little fuel the FM scoops? It sucks. You'll putter along at warp 4 for a long time trying to get fuel back to go full speed again. The 25 point offset gain from IFE, NRSE, and expensive prop research simply isn't worth it.

I'd just take the immunity and leave the rest. On the other hand, if you want an immunity wherein you get the fullest benefit you can take a less common immunity such as radiation with no strings attached, only coming out 25 points behind the guy who takes all the above. With no LRT's yet selected, you might even come out ahead once you select a couple other LRT's. For instance, if you also take OBRM, NAS, and RS you have a net cost of 411 points. The guy taking only the immunity and the last three LRT's (OBRM, NAS, and RS) has a net cost of 369 points. Furthermore, he retains the ability to make economical scoop engines and research propulsion to his hearts content, or trade that field of research into expensive for another cheap tech somewhere else at no cost.

"But I just HAVE to have that FM engine for early expansion!" Bah. How about lowering prop research to cheap, and now you're only at 412 points cost (1 point over the package cost). Those early techs are godawful cheap. You can have a better scoop in no time, and now you can even get that cheap warp 10 capable chaff someday, and trade propulsion tech.

Again, I understand sometimes a particular scenario, PRT and strategy combination may make the package deal I'm disparaging a good race. I'm just saying generally, I don't like it. IFE costs too much and yields too little, NRSE doesn't give enough back, and as I said before, because of it's impact on your race, it becomes a more race-defining element in the creation process than it ought to be.
...




I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Mon, 05 May 2003 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
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I have played in quite a few games and I have found IFE (because of the fuel mizer) to be a very powerful LRT and not overly expensive based on points and then I'll take NRSE to help offset the cost as well.

Even as an IT, I will usually take prop expensive since I rarely need anything beyond the any/800 gates so prop 12 is as high as I need to get. That said, I have played alot, so this is has not been the case in all games just quite a few. This usually depends on the game set-up (an occasionally my mode) Wink

IMHO, the fuel mizer is powerful because it allows you to scout and colonize during the all important early years at WARP 9! This has a very large effect on your population growth curve and therefore your resource curve. It will get you to planets first and allow your to stake claims and stretch your borders so your can colonize more planets. That why it's worth the points. When playing against knowledgeable players, scouting and colonizing at warp 7 during the early game will usually relegate you to a small empire.

Paladin my 2 cents



"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Wed, 28 May 2003 05:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Abaddon is currently offline Abaddon

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 25
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Location: London, England
Umm, this seems as appropriate place as any to ask a silly question and I don't think its worth a new thread so here goes:

The Radiating Hydro Ram Scoop clearly states that it will kill colonists if the mid point of you races radiation isn't at least 85mr.... Now, does that mean only if the engine is fitted to transports carrying colonists?
Scenario: Fairly early in the game, I have a sizable force or torpedo armed RHRS engined destroyers orbiting a distant colony that is under threat, the value of the colony was about 30% but didn't seem to be growing.... Is the radiation leaking from the drives killing people on the planet below? Or did someone ask Rimmer to repair a drive plate on one of those destroyers...? Very Happy
And speaking of radiation, if you have really high radiation tolerance or even immunity, shouldn't that make you immune to smart and neutron bombs?

Oh, and while I am at it what is VML? some sort of Stars! mod?


[Updated on: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:49]




-------------------------------------------------
Revelation 9
verse 10: They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Wed, 28 May 2003 09:43 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

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Abaddon wrote on Wed, 28 May 2003 05:55

The Radiating Hydro Ram Scoop clearly states that it will kill colonists if the mid point of you races radiation isn't at least 85mr.... Now, does that mean only if the engine is fitted to transports carrying colonists?
Scenario: Fairly early in the game, I have a sizable force or torpedo armed RHRS engined destroyers orbiting a distant colony that is under threat, the value of the colony was about 30% but didn't seem to be growing.... Is the radiation leaking from the drives killing people on the planet below? Or did someone ask Rimmer to repair a drive plate on one of those destroyers...? Very Happy

Oh, and while I am at it what is VML? some sort of Stars! mod?


The RHRS will kill colonists only if it is in a fleet carrying transports with colonists. So if you have a fleet and it has 3 transports with DDLL7 and a DD with a RHRS, it will kill the colonists as if the tranports had the RHRS. Now if you put that DD in another fleet, then it will not harm your colonists even if the start and end the turn at the same place (i.e. they travel together but are not combined into one fleet).

Also, VML is a mod in Beta test. See the VML Lounge for more info.

Paladin



"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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