Home World Forum
Stars! AutoHost web forums

Jump to Stars! AutoHost


 
 
Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Mine Damage Dodge - bug or feature? (split from: Late game minesweeper)
Mine Damage Dodge - bug or feature? (split from: Late game minesweeper) Sun, 03 May 2009 04:51 Go to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1197
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
LEit wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 01:19

if you have two different ships in one fleet, the first one in your design pool will take 4/5 of the damage, and the second one will take 1/5

That's the reason why I redesign the initial scout into chaff. Always first... Twisted Evil

BR, Iztok

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Mon, 04 May 2009 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
iztok wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 04:51

Hi!
LEit wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 01:19

if you have two different ships in one fleet, the first one in your design pool will take 4/5 of the damage, and the second one will take 1/5

That's the reason why I redesign the initial scout into chaff. Always first... Twisted Evil

BR, Iztok


So how is this regarded by the community?

Is that generally considered an acceptable technique or not? I'd hate to use it if I'm likely to be called a cheat but if it's OK & others do it then .....

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Mon, 04 May 2009 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

AlexTheGreat wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 13:32

iztok wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 04:51

LEit wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 01:19

if you have two different ships in one fleet, the first one in your design pool will take 4/5 of the damage, and the second one will take 1/5
That's the reason why I redesign the initial scout into chaff. Always first... Twisted Evil
So how is this regarded by the community?

Is that generally considered an acceptable technique or not? I'd hate to use it if I'm likely to be called a cheat but if it's OK & others do it then .....


I can't recall it's acceptability coming up in discussions, ever. Certainly its not listed as an exploit, tho it probably should be. Generally sweepers work alone when they're not being refueled or part of a much larger fleet anyway. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone pairing a lone sweeper with chaff to reduce damage(I usually use packs of 5 for that purpose)..is that cheating? Not until someone bans it. Hardly sporting tho.

Even if it gets added to the bugs list it doesn't necessarily count as the standard cheats disclaimer still only allows chaff and split-fleet, yet there's at least 2 others (besides this) that are never enforced.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 02:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1197
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
gible wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 04:48

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone pairing a lone sweeper with chaff to reduce damage

This feature is rarely used. I do it mostly when I don't have free sweepers at the location (and that's rare Wink ), but have beam BBs and chaff. So I split some (1 BB + 1 chaff) in separate fleets and sent them sweeping. If this combo hits a MF, BB gets significantly less damage as it would get alone.

BR, Iztok

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 03:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
AlexTheGreat wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 03:32

So how is this regarded by the community?

Is that generally considered an acceptable technique or not? I'd hate to use it if I'm likely to be called a cheat but if it's OK & others do it then .....

I doubt many players know about it. It's a bug/feature that can only be seen/used under a special condition (order of fleet designs) so chances to stumble on it by accident (that's how I found out about the damage distribution) are rare ... I can't even remember seeing it on the newsgroup when that was still active years ago.

I've never used it myself, normally I make sure to have enough DD sweepers around ...

But now that the beast is in the open, any name for it? I'll add it to the Bug list (leaving it at the hosts decission to ban it or not) ... and will split this thread.

mch

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 04:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 630
Registered: January 2009
Location: new york -5

i dont really see it as a cheat.. Naturally the first ship going into a minefield is going to take most of the damage. Id put it in the stars must know because sticking it in the bugs section does seem like the right category.


......
Ranked games: 8-1
Recently won the game Knife Fight.
Looking for a practice duel.
.......

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 04:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Micha wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 09:00

But now that the beast is in the open, any name for it? I'll add it to the Bug list (leaving it at the hosts decission to ban it or not) ... and will split this thread.

"Mine Damage Bug" ?

And yeah, a trick that significantly improves the survivability of cheap sweepers should be listed as an exploit, IMHO. Confused



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 07:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 10:56

Micha wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 09:00

But now that the beast is in the open, any name for it? I'll add it to the Bug list (leaving it at the hosts decission to ban it or not) ... and will split this thread.

"Mine Damage Bug" ?

Not specific enough I'd say. And it doesn't say what it does ... something like "dodging mine damage" would come closer ...
But I'm not particular talented when it comes to words ... and English isn't my first language so ...

mch

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Micha wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 07:03

[email

m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 10:56]
Micha wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 09:00

But now that the beast is in the open, any name for it? I'll add it to the Bug list (leaving it at the hosts decission to ban it or not) ... and will split this thread.

"Mine Damage Bug" ?

Not specific enough I'd say. And it doesn't say what it does ... something like "dodging mine damage" would come closer ...
But I'm not particular talented when it comes to words ... and English isn't my first language so ...

mch


I think your name is good Micha. I'd word it slightly differently as the "Mine Damage Dodge".

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
Commander

Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023
Micha wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 08:00


But now that the beast is in the open, any name for it?
mch


Damage allocation exploit?

Damage by design?

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Mine Damage Dodge is good, is there any other instance where manipulating ship slot position impacts the damage done? Gating?

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
AlexTheGreat wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 03:32

Is that generally considered an acceptable technique or not? I'd hate to use it if I'm likely to be called a cheat but if it's OK & others do it then .....


I'd consider it as cheating.

Micha wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 09:00

But now that the beast is in the open...


An ugly beast, indeed. I've heard about it but never really realized the impact this ugly bug can have:
There are a lot of ship types which would usually blow up when hit by a standard minefield: mini bombers, b17, scouts, frigates... and thus one tends to act very carefully with such fleets because nobody likes to loose ALL bombers in a fleet plus ALL xports, scouts, chaff etc.

Is this all negated by this bug?

Perhaps, could anybody, please, give an example how mine-damage is alloacated in a fleet with
# 10 chaff (first design slot)
# 40 mini-bomber
# 55 destroyer

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
"Sacrificial Sweeper Ship"



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5
I'd consider it cheating too, but just like many bugs if you can't prevent it from happening unintentionally (like the ISB trumping IT gate scanning), you can't really ban it...


STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Fran├žais
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Altruist wrote on Wed, 06 May 2009 10:00

Perhaps, could anybody, please, give an example how mine-damage is alloacated in a fleet with
# 10 chaff (first design slot)
# 40 mini-bomber
# 55 destroyer



I did a test with fleets of 1-5 'different' designs with DDs and CCs(in fact all designs were identical except for the hull and name).Actual designs used were:
DD, FM, fuel tank, wolverine shield
CC, 2xFM, 4x wolverine shield
In all cases, every design in the fleet after the first received the minimum damage(125 per engine in this case as they all had FM engines). The first fleet recieved the remaining damage. The minimum damage happens to be 20% of the full damage, and the first fleet received the remaining percentage ie
with 2 designs: 80%
with 3 designs: 60%
with 4 designs: 40%
with 5 designs(and presumably 6 or more): 20%

My test only had one ship of each design per fleet, but I expect that in your case the chaff would take 60% of the damage(3x minimum damage) and the mini-bombers and destroyers would both take 100(or 125)dp/ship... the DD's survive when they wouldn't have if they'd been first, but the bombers die anyway.

Its worth nothing that the increased damage to the first design would be enough to destroy ships that otherwise might have survived had the damage been spread evenly.


[Updated on: Tue, 05 May 2009 20:53]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Tue, 05 May 2009 20:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Altruist wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 18:00

AlexTheGreat wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 03:32

Is that generally considered an acceptable technique or not? I'd hate to use it if I'm likely to be called a cheat but if it's OK & others do it then .....


I'd consider it as cheating.

Micha wrote on Tue, 05 May 2009 09:00

But now that the beast is in the open...


An ugly beast, indeed. I've heard about it but never really realized the impact this ugly bug can have:
There are a lot of ship types which would usually blow up when hit by a standard minefield: mini bombers, b17, scouts, frigates... and thus one tends to act very carefully with such fleets because nobody likes to loose ALL bombers in a fleet plus ALL xports, scouts, chaff etc.

Is this all negated by this bug?

Perhaps, could anybody, please, give an example how mine-damage is alloacated in a fleet with
# 10 chaff (first design slot)
# 40 mini-bomber
# 55 destroyer



It's not as bad as that.

Assuming that we're talking about standard mines.

All chaff & MBs would be destroyed. The DDs would suffer 100dp damage each if no Ram Scoop engine in the FLEET & 125dp damage each otherwise. If the DDs are shielded then up to 50% of the damage would be soaked up by them.

So, in fact, the fleet would suffer excactly the same losses & damages regarless of the design order.

We're only talking about using 1 chaff to protect 1 more expensive ship. In that case the effect is that the chaff is lost but the more expensive ship is damaged as if it were a fleet of 5.

Take a DD sweeper with Ramscoop, weapon, Wolverine. If the race has RS then:
............... Damage to each Sweeper
Fleet ....... With Chaff . Without Chaff
1 Sweeper ...... 31% ........ 100%
2 Sweepers ..... 31% ........ 100%
3 Sweepers ..... 31% ......... 58%
4 Sweepers ..... 31% ......... 37%
5+ Sweepers .... 31% ......... 31%


Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1197
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Quote:

Damage to each Sweeper
...

If I'm reading that correctly, and apply that to HEAVY mines, then it's possible to sweep them with 1 chaff + 2 CCs, CCs taking only 1000 damage when that fleet would hit minefield.

Assuming good shielding, CCs would be damaged only 28% instead destroyed. Assuming also a retreat with WP-1 merge with a SFX, they'd be fit for another sweeping in next turn. Now that would be an exploit. Rolling Eyes

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Wed, 06 May 2009 02:03]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
iztok wrote on Wed, 06 May 2009 02:01

Hi!
Quote:

Damage to each Sweeper
...

If I'm reading that correctly, and apply that to HEAVY mines, then it's possible to sweep them with 1 chaff + 2 CCs, CCs taking only 1000 damage when that fleet would hit minefield.

Assuming good shielding, CCs would be damaged only 28% instead destroyed. Assuming also a retreat with WP-1 merge with a SFX, they'd be fit for another sweeping in next turn. Now that would be an exploit. Rolling Eyes

BR, Iztok


Actually, without testing it, I believe you could do it with 1 chaff + 1 CC since damage to the CC would only be 500 or 600dp depending on Ramscoop or not. With 300dp of shields I calculate damage at 36% or 43% respectively regardless of how many CCs.

Does anyone know whether it works with Heavy mines?

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I'm going to argue that this is not a cheat, but rather a tactic that exploits game mechanics, like multi-packeting or multi-player bombing or chaff or merge on overgating or chaff sweeping.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1
Duel club Champion 2007
Duel Club Champion 2007

Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 141
Registered: June 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA

I copied this to a draft email a while ago. Thought it was from starsfaq dot com in section 6.3, but now that reference is missing.


Minefield Damage
"The numbers in parentheses (...) should be used if *any* of the ships in the fleet have ramscoop engines (this includes the enigma pulsar and the settlers delight engine)


For fleets with more than 5 ships:
Each ship takes 100 (125) damage per engine it has.


For small fleets, 5 ships or less - all of a single design:
The fleet takes 500 (600) * # engines per ship, this is shared equally by all ships in the fleet


For small fleets, 5 ships or less - with multiple designs in fleet:
The first design in the fleet menu (sorted by F4 design order), takes damage as for a single design fleet, but the 500 (600) is modified first by the number of missing/gained engines * 100 (125). The rest of the ships in the fleet take 100 (125) per engine. Missing engines are compared to the number of engines the fleet would have, had all the designs had the same number of engines:

Example: 2 nubians [3 engines each - first design] and 2 DNs [5 engines each] = 4 gained engines.
( 500(600) + (100(125) * 4 [gained engines]) = 900(1100) ) * 3 [engines on a nubian] = 2700(3300) / 2 [nubians] = 1350 (1650)dp damage per nubian).


Shields can absorb upto half of the damage inflicted my a minefield (like a torpedo), the rest is applied to armour. But ship designs cannot benefit from the shields of other designs within the fleet.


For heavy minefields substitute 2000 (2500) and 500 (600) into the equations"

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GJScarritt is currently offline GJScarritt

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 9
Registered: August 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Yep, that's from StarsFaq. Guts of Minefields section. http://www.starsfaq.com/minefield.htm

That faq did say something that made me scratch my head:

"If traveling through overlapping fields, to-hit rolls will only be made vs one of the fields (randomly selected at start of movement)."

And here, I always thought overlapping fields increased the chances of hitting a mine, IE-both fields are checked with each movement. But if overlapping doesn't increase the chance of hitting a mine, what good is it to overlap (Other than to create a solid border around your empire/between empires).


[Updated on: Wed, 06 May 2009 16:11]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
AlexTheGreat wrote on Wed, 06 May 2009 07:07

Actually, without testing it, I believe you could do it with 1 chaff + 1 CC since damage to the CC would only be 500 or 600dp depending on Ramscoop or not. With 300dp of shields I calculate damage at 36% or 43% respectively regardless of how many CCs.



Oops, 2 engines on a CC so as I said but, for the CC to survive, it'd need 500/600dp shields & damage would be 72%/86% if my maths is right.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1
Duel club Champion 2007
Duel Club Champion 2007

Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 141
Registered: June 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA

If someone is chaff sweeping, overlapping mines should help a little. Because only the minefield being hit is the one reduced. So it takes more chaff to get through. I've never played in a game where someone has successfully gotten through overlapping minefields more often then they failed. I think there is a utility for calcing number of chaff needed for a single field, but I bet it does not handle overlapping fields.

In my opinion, chaff sweeping to remove a minefield and attack in a single turn is MUCH more against the spirit of the game than adding chaff to make your fleet size 6 or so and avoid the EXTRA fleet damage or even keep your fleet in the size of three or four and let the 1st design take most of the damage.

But then, I have never chaff swept and there was one game where I used fleet size 6 (rounded out with chaff) to get where I needed against an SD doing exploding minefields and even let the F4 weirdness logic happen on a few forays with two to four ships.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5
How could crash sweeping be against the spirit of the game? It does exactly what the game intended the mine fields to be, all that by mass producing very cheap ships and sending them to their death.

If anything, that's a perfect example of bacis strategical thinking: the weak can overcome otherwise unwinnable odds by flooding the ennemy with cheap but numerous combattants.



STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Fran├žais
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Late game minesweeper Wed, 06 May 2009 22:30 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1
Duel club Champion 2007
Duel Club Champion 2007

Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 141
Registered: June 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA

Some of my pointless "spirit of the game" musings:

I think of Stars! as a universe siimilar to Star Trek. Travel is at warp speed, some of the random AI race names are generated from Star Trek characters, etc. Captains in the Star Trek world are bold, elite, daring tactitians - willing to take risks if dire situations require, but value their crews and their ships like their own kin.

When we talk about chaff sweeping, it like saying: "O.K. Kirk, Picardi, Janeway, Archer and 98% of you other captains, climb into these kamikaze rust buckets and race full speed into the nearest mine! We've crunched the numbers with our utilities and micro-managed all the fleet numbers so the big ships can go in unscathed!" Laughing

Maybe I should just consider the chaff as automated drones.

And some other people have complained that minefields in general make the game too slow and defensive. So maybe chaff sweeping is equivalent to the "en passant" rule added to chess after hundreds of years to loosen up the game.








Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic: Transferring fleets
Next Topic: Dodging Invasion
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat Dec 02 07:46:01 EST 2023