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Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II
Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Wed, 11 February 2009 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dude is currently offline Dude

 
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oh my.

Midnight GMT is indeed different from midnight eastern.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Wed, 11 February 2009 17:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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Dude wrote on Wed, 11 February 2009 23:20

oh my.

Midnight GMT is indeed different from midnight eastern.

Yes, midnight GMT is 5 hours earlier than midnight EST.



Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Thu, 12 February 2009 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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All race files are in.

Unfortunately one of the race files is corrupt, so I am waiting for a valid race file from that player. This means that the rest of you can try to improve your races, but I do not know when I will be setting up the game (hopefully this evening, I am in GMT+1), and I will not regenerate the game because I receive an updated race file after I have generated the game.

I will e-mail each of you the initial turn so you can start on the game, but it may be several days before Ron puts the game up on Autohost, and you will not be able to submit your turn before Ron has put up the game on Autohost.



Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Thu, 12 February 2009 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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All files in, and now none of them corrupt Razz

I will generate the game later this evening.

I expect to generate the game at around GMT 20:00 to 21:00, so if some of you have last minute changes you want to complete, then you need to hurry.


[Updated on: Thu, 12 February 2009 12:52]




Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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The game has been created and sent to Ron, but please keep this thread open for last minute discussions until Ron has set up the private forum for the game.

The first last minute discussion:

A question has come up regarding colonization: What happens if two races try to colonize the same planet in the same year, and would that constitute a violation of the NAP ?

I do not remember what happens in that situation, so there are two possibilities:

1. The Stars! OOE determines (by player number, reverse player number or randomly) who colonizes the planet and who ends up in orbit with a colonizer that might be low on fuel.

2. Both races go down and engage in ground combat to determine who colonizes the planet. This obviously won't be the case if one of the races is AR, but I have no idea what might happens if one is AR and the other is not.

I would be inclined to say that whatever happens is just bad luck, but I would like to hear your opinions on that matter.

It should be added that popdropping a planet is considered an attack, so popdropping a planet is a violation of the NAP, and as IS overflow population from freighters only beams down to planets owned by their own race, popdropping cannot occur by accident - If the freighter is full and not in orbit of a planet owned by that race, then the colonists do not breed.



Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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If two non-AR races attempt to colonize a planet the same year the race with the most pop wins a planetary battle and colonizes with the remaining pop. I don't know what happens if one or both of the races is/are AR. At any rate, I agree that if it happens it happens and the races then have the option of invoking the exit clause and starting a popdrop war. Laughing

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rolfverberg

 
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I would say bad luck if it happens. If the defeated party thinks it was a determined or provocative effort, I would say it is free to end the NAP.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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IIRC, AR always loses colonization battles to races with real people.

I consider a colony made up of 2.5k pop to be an invitation for tech transfer rather than a valid claim on a planet. If you don't need a couple transports worth to hold a world, it is just an invitation to spam colonizers and use the NAP to keep much larger colonization efforts from landing.

NAP should prevent knocking off an orbital fort to initiate pop-drops but not the pop-dropping of lightly colonized worlds.

CAL

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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rolfverberg wrote on Fri, 13 February 2009 19:41

I would say bad luck if it happens. If the defeated party thinks it was a determined or provocative effort, I would say it is free to end the NAP.

Any race can end the NAP with the 2 year exit clause at any time, with any one race or all races, for any reason, or for no reason at all. The 2 year exit clause is required, though, otherwise the attack is considered a backstab, and that not only has consequences in this game, a known backstabber might find it difficult to find allies in future games, too.

Of course, ending the NAP works both ways. If a race chooses to end the NAP, then they are inviting hostile action from the race(s) they are ending the NAP with, and if the single race they are ending the NAP with publish the fact to all races, then other races might be inclined to end the NAP with the race ending the NAP with one opponent. The NAP should not be ended unless the race ending the NAP is ready and willing to engage in war against their neighbours.



Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Quote:

NAP should prevent knocking off an orbital fort to initiate pop-drops but not the pop-dropping of lightly colonized worlds.


I disagree with this. A NAP means no agression, and popdropping a lightly populated world is agression.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Fri, 13 February 2009 14:06

I disagree with this. A NAP means no agression, and popdropping a lightly populated world is agression.


Lightly populating worlds is also aggression.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Stupidity is agression? And what about 3i HEs?

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark is currently offline Mark

 
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I don't think we should consider colonization as an attack. And I also have to agree with CAL that 2.5k colonizations are just about grabbing space and any world without an orbital should be considered free game and con be pop dropped even if the NAP is still in place. An orbital fort costs 18 resources so any reasonable colony can build one in a year. The only problem would be if you colonized in year 1 and an opponents freighter arrived in year 1, then if you build a fort in year 2 and your opponent dropped pop by hand in year 2, the pop would drop on the planet before the fort was up. I often don't build orbitals right away, prefering to put resouces into factories and mines but it wouldn't be that big of an impact on development.
Mark

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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If your opponent can't drop on you, it isn't stupidity. For the cost of 2.5k sitting on a red, you can prevent 55k in orbit from doing anything -including breeding- for several years while they look for a new home. If you colonized the entire cluster, it could take even longer for the fleet to refuel and get somewhere. Basically you grab space and you cost your opponent several times the population it costs you.

Transport orders shouldn't affect the NAP.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TheShadow7478 is currently offline TheShadow7478

 
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What is considered a legitimate claim to the planet in this game? any pop on it, 2.5k, 25k, or an orbital defense of some kind (fort, dock etc..)?

Inquiring minds want to know...

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Velvet and Mark, how well does it work for you in other games when you popdrop on an NAP partner and then say, "Hey, you should have put up an orbital. If you don't put up an orbital you're being agressive, so it's not me who violated the NAP, it's you."

[Updated on: Fri, 13 February 2009 14:41]

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark is currently offline Mark

 
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I think that is what we are trying to decide and I would guess it will be what the majority of players agree on.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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TheShadow7478 wrote on Fri, 13 February 2009 20:33

What is considered a legitimate claim to the planet in this game? any pop on it, 2.5k, 25k, or an orbital defense of some kind (fort, dock etc..)?

Inquiring minds want to know...

I would like opinions on that question, too. However, any population is usually considered a claim - The difference in this game is that popdropping a planet is a violation of the NAP, in most games it is just an attack, and might be considered a legitimate attack (except by the victim).



Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark is currently offline Mark

 
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I have never played in a game which started with NAPs so it never came up. If there was no NAP and another player did a 2.5k colonization on a planet that I considered in my territory I would just remove it but I'm not sure I've ever seen this happen outside of a game with the AI's. But in this game it could be a way to grab territory because of the NAP. I know that you could just end the NAP but....

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Well, imagine that you've agreed to an NAP with a 2 year exit clause with a race that turns out to be a 3i HE. How would you expect your NAP partner to react when you start popdropping on his colonies?

Myself, I would negotiate a border with the HE, and if that did not occur to my satisfaction I'd invoke the quite short 2 year exit clause and send popdrop packages on the way to arrive in three years.


[Updated on: Fri, 13 February 2009 14:54]

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark is currently offline Mark

 
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My guess that this won't be much of an issue because most folks will define borders with thier nieghbors and only intersettle after asking but it gives us something to talk about while we are waiting for the game to be setup. It is an interesting question because in my limited experience borders are often defined by which planets have been colonized along said border.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark is currently offline Mark

 
Crewman 1st Class

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I understand what you are saying but in your example I can't imagine that I would make a NAP with a neighbor who was encroaching on my territory. So it seems to me that the 3iHE is being very aggressive. And your right you can end the NAP but I thought part of the point was to have an "All Quiet" start to help avoid hostilities early in the game. I have no problem saying that any pop dropping is an attacked and must wait until after the NAP has expired. But I think the key question is "Is a 2.5k colony a viable colony, even for a 3iHE?" I would say "no" which is why I consider them just a way to grab territory.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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What I can imagine is getting into an NAP, finding a WH and both going through it. I go through with maybe three 52.5k colonization packages and my NAP partner goes through with 21 2.5k packages and some fuel transports. I find and colonize one or two worlds and then discover that my partner has colonized all the rest of the available worlds. Yes, that's agressive play on his part, but I would then be violating the NAP if I popdrop on any of his puny and orbitaless colonies.

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark is currently offline Mark

 
Crewman 1st Class

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What is considered a legitimate claim to the planet in this game?[ 8 votes ]
1. any pop 5 / 63%
2. 25K pop 2 / 25%
3. orbital 1 / 13%

Yes true, with the traditional interpretation that any pop on a planet is a claim.
I would still be interested in polling the players about "What is considered a legitimate claim to the planet in this game?"


[Updated on: Fri, 13 February 2009 15:45]

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Re: Vanilla Game (Almost): All Quiet II Fri, 13 February 2009 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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I'd really like to vote for "Any population" rather than "2.5K population"

On Edit: Thanks for the update Mark.


[Updated on: Fri, 13 February 2009 15:49]

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