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HE race. Thoughts? Mon, 29 December 2008 04:20 Go to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
HE
ISB, OBRM, RS
3i, 6%
1/1000
12/8/17
11/3/18
Weapons, Construction, Propulsion cheap, Energy normal.

I'm too lazy to do a full testbed, but from a to 2420 testbed, a few things are obvious: The Germ crunch exists but is manageable thanks to the good mines, packed density is near-essential for good growth, and factories/mines lag quite a bit, so homeworld building of most ships is essential.

Thoughts?

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Mon, 29 December 2008 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 29 December 2008 10:20

Thoughts?

Umm, I miss 59 RW points. Did you take 3g cost for factories? If you did, you can easily change it for better mine or factory efficiency. With 935 factories per 100% planet you can afford paying 4g for a factory. Anyway, here's what I'd do.

Take NRSE and prop at least normal if not expensive. You don't want to research prop up to 16 just for warp-10 engine. With this you'd also get enough points for mines eff +1.

Quote:

mines 11/3/18

Get more mines, like 10/3/23. With your settings you'll be operating only 900 mines per 100% full planet (450 at 50% hold). When sh.t hits the fan you'll not have enough minerals for serious shipbuilding.

Quote:

Weapons, Construction, Propulsion cheap, Energy normal

Take En cheap for better shields and defenses. Take Prop expensive: the most you'll ever need is prop-12. Take Elec normal for more reasons:
- you have pen scanners, whose you can trade.
- Obtaining Super comp and jammer-20/30 faster than others gives good advantage.
- Not to mention you have that nasty Flux capacitor at elec-14.

Just a last thought: PGR 6% makes your race quite fast, so it is IMO more suitable for crowded games than for longer-lasting games. The race should work well in any uni density, but OFC the densier the stars the faster it will grow (less lost growth in transit).

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Mon, 29 December 2008 06:32]

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Tue, 30 December 2008 07:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
iztok wrote on Mon, 29 December 2008 21:56

Hi!
magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 29 December 2008 10:20

Thoughts?

Umm, I miss 59 RW points. Did you take 3g cost for factories? If you did, you can easily change it for better mine or factory efficiency. With 935 factories per 100% planet you can afford paying 4g for a factory.


Yes, 3g facts. I came close to crunching as-is. Remember that although I have 1/2 pop/planet, I have more than 2x planets/unit space because of triimm.

Quote:

Take NRSE and prop at least normal if not expensive. You don't want to research prop up to 16 just for warp-10 engine. With this you'd also get enough points for mines eff +1.


Yeah, I'd thought about it. I hate NRSE, that's all, and would prefer the battle efficiency, 'specially since HEs rely more on cruiser-class hulls than any other (factoried) race. And I would get 1 less than the amount of points for mine eff +1 Sad

Quote:

Quote:

mines 11/3/18

Get more mines, like 10/3/23. With your settings you'll be operating only 900 mines per 100% full planet (450 at 50% hold). When sh.t hits the fan you'll not have enough minerals for serious shipbuilding.


But won't I have twice as many planets to mine on?

Quote:

Quote:

Weapons, Construction, Propulsion cheap, Energy normal

Take En cheap for better shields and defenses. Take Prop expensive: the most you'll ever need is prop-12. Take Elec normal for more reasons:
- you have pen scanners, whose you can trade.
- Obtaining Super comp and jammer-20/30 faster than others gives good advantage.
- Not to mention you have that nasty Flux capacitor at elec-14.


The Flux Cap's at Ener 14, Elec 7. Besides that, you have a point. A question though: Would elec cheap, ener normal be a valid option? What about taking only 2 cheap techs?

Quote:

Just a last thought: PGR 6% makes your race quite fast, so it is IMO more suitable for crowded games than for longer-lasting games. The race should work well in any uni density, but OFC the densier the stars the faster it will grow (less lost growth in tr
...

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Tue, 30 December 2008 08:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Effluviant Walrus is currently offline Effluviant Walrus

 
Senior Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 91
Registered: May 2008
Location: New York, US
magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 30 December 2008 07:42


Another question, why are 3i HEs considered crap?


I've never played a 3i HE in a real game, but I'd imagine the combination of 1) having to spread out over more territory (being HE) and 2) not having stargates defend would be quite painful.

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Tue, 30 December 2008 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xardre is currently offline Xardre

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 100
Registered: June 2005
HE are considered garbage because of the 40+ years need to ramp up and the lack of stargates. But if you realy want to try one heres one from my race book. Dont have the testbed numbers anymore and have never used this in a game but you might have a use for it.

HE (of course)
TT, ISB, OBRM, NAS
Grav Immune, Temp -120 to 120, Rad 30 to 70
7% (14%) growth, 1in4 (eventualy all)
1/1000
15/7/25/3G
11/3/24
3.5 tech (weapons/con cheap, prop exspensive rest normal)

And before you ask why take TT on an HE race, i took it for the ramp time. 30% discount on terra is huge when your 50% hold on a world only produces just over 1300 resources for a perfect world.

Diplomacy, Find a 1in10 race and inter settle fast, dishout all tech you can to keep out of a war as you are kind of exsposed without gates till metamorph swarms can be built. IT, SD and IS are your best allies for the minelayers and gates.

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Wed, 31 December 2008 03:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
Both of your responses are full of holes.

@EW: You DON'T have to spread out over more territory. That's exactly the point. Tri-imm more than makes up for half planet size in res/space. Hence you have a more compact empire, not more spread out. Unless you grow more and take other people's space, which isn't exactly bad.

@Xardre: But you DON'T need 40+ years to ramp up. Shocked Play this and tell me it's slow:

HE
ISB, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
3i, 6%
1/1000
13/8/20/3g
13/3/18
Weap, con cheap

That's what you get if you go for pure econ. Even that's not as harsh on tech and LRTs as your average HG, but will almost certainly breach 40k if not 50k by 2450. Plus you can intersettle with anyone and can trade con tech and minerals for planets and gate use.

Also, your race has a couple of problems. Foremost in my mind is your crap growth. Triimmunes can get away easily with low growth because everything's 100%. Biimmunes can, too, to a lesser extent, because their average lived-on hab is something ridiculous like 80-85%. But a one-immune won't do much better than 60% average hab, so you'll be lucky to get 9% achieved growth, which dumps you well under the HG races. Also, your mines suck compared to your factories, which will prevent you from building much with all those wonderful resources, and last, prop expensive with no NRSE hurts. A lot.

I will admit that your average HG TT CA will eat, swallow, digest, and poop out most 3i HEs, but... that's an HG TT CA.

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Wed, 31 December 2008 07:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 30 December 2008 13:42

I hate NRSE, that's all, and would prefer the battle efficiency

Last time I checked all "standard" engines were faster in battle than comparable scoop engines. Regarding fuel: your race can build the refueling Dock in one turn on every empty (== bombed out Wink ) planet in a single turn.

Quote:

'specially since HEs rely more on cruiser-class hulls than any other (factoried) race.

Umm, in MY book of Stars!-rules-of-thumb there's no such a statement Wink . I'd use hordes of CCs if I'd have gates, to "throw" them around as needed. But for a HE with NRSE is the AD-8 engine the last I'd put on a mainline warship CC. TGD-9 and IS-10 are simply too expensive to be used en-mass on a CC. And the AD-8 on a CC has a nasty limitation of just one W-9 move. There's no fuel for the next one, so a player has to do more MM to overcome that limitation.

Quote:

> Get more mines, like 10/3/23.
But won't I have twice as many planets to mine on?

Yes, but you'll also have twice as many planets to build on them. Those planets will ALL have about 1.5k resources, and the 16-Jihad BB costs about 1k resurces but 1.3MT of iron. With ~1k mines operating you could VERY soon have resources, but no minerals. Belive me, two years ago I've won a game Star-Crossed with a 6% 3-immune HE with 10/3/21 mines, and I had to be quite picky about what to build.

Quote:

Would elec cheap, ener normal be a valid option?

IMO not. The last tech for Elec you want to get in a "normaly" fast game is level 16 for jammer-30 and Elephant pen scanners. Then there's quite a big "hole" to Nexus comp at Elec-19, and nothing more of real importance thereafter. But in Energy you have two shields at en-18 and 22 and ultimate defenses at en-23. IMO for a HE with its half-sized planets better defenses come handy.

Quote:

What about taking only 2 cheap techs?

An option, but the 3rd cheap tech is quite cheap in RW points, and could save you a lot of resources (and time) you
...



[Updated on: Thu, 01 January 2009 05:54]

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Thu, 01 January 2009 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xardre is currently offline Xardre

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 100
Registered: June 2005
Hmmm perhaps the problem was i always assumed that 5% growth was to slow even for HE so i traded the 3i for economy. I might have to rethink my looks at this race but then again its not a race i like to play realy, since taking on a MM monster like this isnt my cup of tea.

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Fri, 02 January 2009 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
5% is slow, and needs a bit of room and diplo. 6% 3i is, on the other hand, a very nasty HG-style race. Basically von Neumann machines.

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Re: HE race. Thoughts? Fri, 02 January 2009 05:39 Go to previous message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 985
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

Hi ,


most times it depends on the gamesettings and special the players next to you .

You can not say a 7% is a nasty HG race and need no dip. .

Normaly the best way to play HE is to go for the exta speed they have and not to go for max Res. / planet .

There are other races around could do this more easy. So if you want play a HE use the advantages of the Race not try to beat the other races in some Point.


ccmaster

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