Home » Primary Racial Traits » HE » Why is HE not considered as powerful?
| Why is HE not considered as powerful? |
Tue, 16 December 2008 08:43  |
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 magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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I ask because the resource potential of HE is well above that of the "military" PRTs and in fact almost certainly superior to anything but CA, which is well, CA. And so banned.
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| Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? |
Tue, 16 December 2008 09:21  |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
HEs can be very successfull in both econ extremes:
* as "HPs" with 4-5% PGR, 1/1000 pop eff, LOTS of factories and mines and cheap techs, or
* insanely fast -f (15% PGR, some cheap techs - for more reference check cc-master's duel results).
But as a 4-5% HP it needs quite some time and peace and MM to become a monster. Significantly more time than other PRTs need to become combat-ready. When one becomes combat-ready, he usually looks after someone weaker than him to get his space. So why don't attack that weak slow-growing HE next door now, when he's still quite far from the monster he'll be in 30 turns?  
In both "incarnations" they also lack gates. The bigger the uni, the more that hurts, since mobility is the foundation to successfull warfare. HE is limited only to the speed of its engines. (To myself: I really must play the IT once. EVERYTHING gateable. HMMMMmmm...  )
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Thu, 18 December 2008 03:15] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? |
Tue, 16 December 2008 11:19 |
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| johng316 |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002
Location: Indiana, USA | |
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Yes, this attitude that HE is weak is a holdover from several years ago. Previously, the 4-5% HE was considered unbeatable, and then Jason Cawley and Barry Kearns and others wrote about 25K by 2450 and proved that a HG CA, HG IS, HG WM, HG - anything could stomp the low growth tri-immune HE. From there, HE was then flip-flopped from strongest to among the weakest as play styles adjusted in the Stars community.
But there are still many situations where HE can be very effective and competitive, so I think it is a mistake to count them out or overlook them.
Personally, I think winning a Stars! game is probably only 40% race design. The other 60% is luck (some), strategy and tactical strength (much) and diplomacy (most). A great race design won't save you if you are vastly unlucky or suck at tactics OR diplomacy. I'd go as far as to say that a great race design will probably doom you if you suck at diplo.
John
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| Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? |
Tue, 16 December 2008 16:06 |
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| johng316 |
| Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002
Location: Indiana, USA | |
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| vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 16 December 2008 13:36 |
| johng316 wrote on Tue, 16 December 2008 08:19 |
SNIP...
But there are still many situations where HE can be very effective and competitive, so I think it is a mistake to count them out or overlook them.
...SNIP
John
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Indeed, if you discount and overlook the HE in your galaxy it will eat you in the late game. But like AR it has to survive to grow into that galaxy devouring monster. And in somes ways HE is even more vulnerable that AR in the early game in that it is vulnerable to popdropping. I tend to look at an HE neighbor as a crop to be harvested, particularly if I'm playing IS. The HE does me the service of producing colonies everywhere and all I have to do is produce freighters and population to harvest the planets and accumulated minerals and maybe tech bonuses, and of course factories and mines on worlds I actually want, before the HE can put up a credible set of defenses. Yum!
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Yeah, I hear you, but I think that most experienced HE players won't just drop 1000 people on a planet and leave them there to await their slaughter. They might colonize with 1000, but then a year later 20-30K more people are deposited, and a year after that you're facing 40-60K pop. These are imported from adjacent breeder worlds. And if there's an agacent breeder, you'll be facing escort ships. HE empires that are too thin are easy pickings, you are right, but it doesn't take long before a good HE player can defend. There are still weaknesses though. Lack of gates, lower planet populations, etc.
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| Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? |
Thu, 18 December 2008 10:05 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| mlaub wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 09:03 |
| ccmaster wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 02:53 |
| joseph wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 11:57 |
HE
Aparently years ago HE did have gates and was considered too powerful so gates were removed.
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Hi ,
Gates ? What Version should this be ? Never saw HE with Gates ,
and play I thought as long as this game is around .
Some Beta ? Alpha ?
If there is still a Version out there where HE play with gates i am interrested in it ! 
ccmaster
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2.00b HE had gates. That is the version I bought. Had to mine fuel, too. Balance was way different, tho.
-Matt
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Oh, yea, forgot to say... You never saw HE with Gates? Noob. 
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? |
Sat, 20 December 2008 17:51 |
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| mlaub wrote on Sat, 20 December 2008 19:41 |
I can email you the 2.0b zip if you want it. It would be even better if it was put in the downloads section... 
It's 1.28MB.
-Matt
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Oh, can I have it, too, please?
I've got some webspace and can store it there then for further downloads.
[Updated on: Sat, 20 December 2008 17:52] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? |
Sun, 21 December 2008 01:05 |
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That's the 2.0b trial version yes? ie limited to tech level 10 etc
[Updated on: Sun, 21 December 2008 01:13] Report message to a moderator
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