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Why is HE not considered as powerful? Tue, 16 December 2008 08:43 Go to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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I ask because the resource potential of HE is well above that of the "military" PRTs and in fact almost certainly superior to anything but CA, which is well, CA. And so banned.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Tue, 16 December 2008 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 16 December 2008 07:43

I ask because the resource potential of HE is well above that of the "military" PRTs and in fact almost certainly superior to anything but CA, which is well, CA. And so banned.




Many players have probably never seen an HE played very well.

Many designs make it weak at the start of the game. So perception is that it is not as powerful?

It's tough to mess up a CA design, quite easy to mess up an HE. Smile

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Tue, 16 December 2008 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
HEs can be very successfull in both econ extremes:
* as "HPs" with 4-5% PGR, 1/1000 pop eff, LOTS of factories and mines and cheap techs, or
* insanely fast -f (15% PGR, some cheap techs - for more reference check cc-master's duel results).

But as a 4-5% HP it needs quite some time and peace and MM to become a monster. Significantly more time than other PRTs need to become combat-ready. When one becomes combat-ready, he usually looks after someone weaker than him to get his space. So why don't attack that weak slow-growing HE next door now, when he's still quite far from the monster he'll be in 30 turns? 2 Guns Dead

In both "incarnations" they also lack gates. The bigger the uni, the more that hurts, since mobility is the foundation to successfull warfare. HE is limited only to the speed of its engines. (To myself: I really must play the IT once. EVERYTHING gateable. HMMMMmmm... Twisted Evil )

BR, Iztok



[Updated on: Thu, 18 December 2008 03:15]

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Tue, 16 December 2008 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johng316 is currently offline johng316

 
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Yes, this attitude that HE is weak is a holdover from several years ago. Previously, the 4-5% HE was considered unbeatable, and then Jason Cawley and Barry Kearns and others wrote about 25K by 2450 and proved that a HG CA, HG IS, HG WM, HG - anything could stomp the low growth tri-immune HE. From there, HE was then flip-flopped from strongest to among the weakest as play styles adjusted in the Stars community.

But there are still many situations where HE can be very effective and competitive, so I think it is a mistake to count them out or overlook them.

Personally, I think winning a Stars! game is probably only 40% race design. The other 60% is luck (some), strategy and tactical strength (much) and diplomacy (most). A great race design won't save you if you are vastly unlucky or suck at tactics OR diplomacy. I'd go as far as to say that a great race design will probably doom you if you suck at diplo.

John



All Your Base Are Belong To Us.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Tue, 16 December 2008 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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johng316 wrote on Tue, 16 December 2008 08:19


SNIP...

But there are still many situations where HE can be very effective and competitive, so I think it is a mistake to count them out or overlook them.

...SNIP

John


Indeed, if you discount and overlook the HE in your galaxy it will eat you in the late game. But like AR it has to survive to grow into that galaxy devouring monster. And in somes ways HE is even more vulnerable that AR in the early game in that it is vulnerable to popdropping. I tend to look at an HE neighbor as a crop to be harvested, particularly if I'm playing IS. The HE does me the service of producing colonies everywhere and all I have to do is produce freighters and population to harvest the planets and accumulated minerals and maybe tech bonuses, and of course factories and mines on worlds I actually want, before the HE can put up a credible set of defenses. Yum!

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Tue, 16 December 2008 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johng316 is currently offline johng316

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 16 December 2008 13:36

johng316 wrote on Tue, 16 December 2008 08:19


SNIP...

But there are still many situations where HE can be very effective and competitive, so I think it is a mistake to count them out or overlook them.

...SNIP

John


Indeed, if you discount and overlook the HE in your galaxy it will eat you in the late game. But like AR it has to survive to grow into that galaxy devouring monster. And in somes ways HE is even more vulnerable that AR in the early game in that it is vulnerable to popdropping. I tend to look at an HE neighbor as a crop to be harvested, particularly if I'm playing IS. The HE does me the service of producing colonies everywhere and all I have to do is produce freighters and population to harvest the planets and accumulated minerals and maybe tech bonuses, and of course factories and mines on worlds I actually want, before the HE can put up a credible set of defenses. Yum!


Yeah, I hear you, but I think that most experienced HE players won't just drop 1000 people on a planet and leave them there to await their slaughter. They might colonize with 1000, but then a year later 20-30K more people are deposited, and a year after that you're facing 40-60K pop. These are imported from adjacent breeder worlds. And if there's an agacent breeder, you'll be facing escort ships. HE empires that are too thin are easy pickings, you are right, but it doesn't take long before a good HE player can defend. There are still weaknesses though. Lack of gates, lower planet populations, etc.



All Your Base Are Belong To Us.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Wed, 17 December 2008 05:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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HE isnt considered weak as such but it has one huge problem.
"Time to Front"

Consider for a moment 2 ajoining empires(one HE one not) - no war between them but have been shooting down each others scouts.
Both empires have other empires to worry about on their borders.
Your just reaching the Battleship era - with the associated 300/500 gates.

If the HE attacks they need to gather forces and then clear minefields and hit a world that might have a defence force gated in at the last minute.

If the other attacks - 1 year to build across the empire, 1 year to gather via gate. Clear mines and hit world.
This gives the HE very little time to respond to the threat and it is likely that it is just impossible to assemble a defence in time.

What this translates to is that when people start looking for someone to attack the HE is very tempting as you know you can trim away at least 2 planets before they can mount a defence.
So the HE often gets attacked by a couple of people - at which point they are overstretched and weakend. From there it is a downward slope.


Aparently years ago HE did have gates and was considered too powerful so gates were removed.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Thu, 18 December 2008 03:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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joseph wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 11:57

HE

Aparently years ago HE did have gates and was considered too powerful so gates were removed.




Hi ,

Gates ? What Version should this be ? Never saw HE with Gates ,
and play I thought as long as this game is around .
Some Beta ? Alpha ?
If there is still a Version out there where HE play with gates i am interrested in it ! Razz


ccmaster

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Thu, 18 December 2008 10:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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ccmaster wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 02:53

joseph wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 11:57

HE

Aparently years ago HE did have gates and was considered too powerful so gates were removed.




Hi ,

Gates ? What Version should this be ? Never saw HE with Gates ,
and play I thought as long as this game is around .
Some Beta ? Alpha ?
If there is still a Version out there where HE play with gates i am interrested in it ! Razz


ccmaster


2.00b HE had gates. That is the version I bought. Had to mine fuel, too. Balance was way different, tho.

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Thu, 18 December 2008 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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mlaub wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 09:03

ccmaster wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 02:53

joseph wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 11:57

HE

Aparently years ago HE did have gates and was considered too powerful so gates were removed.




Hi ,

Gates ? What Version should this be ? Never saw HE with Gates ,
and play I thought as long as this game is around .
Some Beta ? Alpha ?
If there is still a Version out there where HE play with gates i am interrested in it ! Razz


ccmaster


2.00b HE had gates. That is the version I bought. Had to mine fuel, too. Balance was way different, tho.

-Matt



Oh, yea, forgot to say... You never saw HE with Gates? Noob. Smile

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Thu, 18 December 2008 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Oh man, mining fuel, now that was a pain in the butt. Made OBRM a much more problematic choice IIRC. All I really remember is building a mighty fleet and then losing because I ran out of fuel and did not have the means to get more. Embarassed

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Fri, 19 December 2008 02:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
vonKreedon wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 19:27

building a mighty fleet and then losing because I ran out of fuel and did not have the means to get more.

No scoops in that game version, or you didn't pick them? Yeah, I'm such a noob too. Wink

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Fri, 19 December 2008 02:20]

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Fri, 19 December 2008 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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iztok wrote on Fri, 19 December 2008 01:19

Hi!
vonKreedon wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 19:27

building a mighty fleet and then losing because I ran out of fuel and did not have the means to get more.

No scoops in that game version, or you didn't pick them? Yeah, I'm such a noob too. Wink

BR, Iztok


Yes there were scoops. He didn't use them, apparently.

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Fri, 19 December 2008 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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I don't remember, this was some 1.x version of Stars! so I don't remember if there were no scoops or, more likely, I'd taken NRSE. At any rate, not just my mighty fleet, but my entire empire ran out of fuel. Laughing

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Sat, 20 December 2008 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Pwned.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Sat, 20 December 2008 04:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GJScarritt is currently offline GJScarritt

 
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All this talk of the old versions got me curious. Got the 1.1a version and ran thru the tutorial. Might i just say, WOW! I could already tell that the game would be very unforgiving of any mistakes and miscalculations. Also, thank the Jeffs for all the bells and whistles they've added in the later versions. I missed my zoom, pop growth #'s and Ram Scoops gathering extra fuel right off the bat (not to mention no gates).
Now all i need to do is find a 2.0 version somewhere (at which point, i'll gratefully hug my current version even more). Smile

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Sat, 20 December 2008 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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GJScarritt wrote on Sat, 20 December 2008 03:13

All this talk of the old versions got me curious. Got the 1.1a version and ran thru the tutorial. Might i just say, WOW! I could already tell that the game would be very unforgiving of any mistakes and miscalculations. Also, thank the Jeffs for all the bells and whistles they've added in the later versions. I missed my zoom, pop growth #'s and Ram Scoops gathering extra fuel right off the bat (not to mention no gates).
Now all i need to do is find a 2.0 version somewhere (at which point, i'll gratefully hug my current version even more). Smile


I can email you the 2.0b zip if you want it. It would be even better if it was put in the downloads section... Wink

It's 1.28MB.

-Matt


[Updated on: Sat, 20 December 2008 13:42]




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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Sat, 20 December 2008 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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mlaub wrote on Sat, 20 December 2008 19:41

I can email you the 2.0b zip if you want it. It would be even better if it was put in the downloads section... Wink

It's 1.28MB.

-Matt



Oh, can I have it, too, please?
I've got some webspace and can store it there then for further downloads.


[Updated on: Sat, 20 December 2008 17:52]

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Sat, 20 December 2008 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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Altruist wrote on Sat, 20 December 2008 16:51

mlaub wrote on Sat, 20 December 2008 19:41

I can email you the 2.0b zip if you want it. It would be even better if it was put in the downloads section... Wink

It's 1.28MB.

-Matt



Oh, can I have it, too, please?
I've got some webspace and can store it there then for further downloads.


Sent it. Lemme know if that was the right address.

-Matt





Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Sun, 21 December 2008 01:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
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That's the 2.0b trial version yes? ie limited to tech level 10 etc

[Updated on: Sun, 21 December 2008 01:13]

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Sun, 21 December 2008 01:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GJScarritt is currently offline GJScarritt

 
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Yes, it's the Unregisters/Shareware version. Enough to play around with.

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Stars! 2.0b (link to file) Sun, 21 December 2008 05:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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mlaub wrote on Sun, 21 December 2008 01:13

Sent it. Lemme know if that was the right address.



Thanks. Got it and uploaded it. The link and a small description is in the sticky bar thread with the updated link list:

* Stars! Official Strategy Guide - uptodate links to other sites


[Updated on: Sun, 21 December 2008 05:11]

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Fri, 27 May 2011 06:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Note: I have achieved 25k @ 2450 with a 3i HE in Tenderfoot, a medium normal with 8 other players. I know of few races that can get 30k+ in a tiny normal. Razz

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2011 06:47]

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Fri, 27 May 2011 07:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 27 May 2011 16:12

Note: I have achieved 25k @ 2450 with a 3i HE in Tenderfoot, a medium normal with 8 other players. I know of few races that can get 30k+ in a tiny normal. Razz


Yea, which just proves the point that everyone made in this thread.

A HE is a good race, but it needs time to grow in peace... which you got Razz

Quote:


But as a 4-5% HP it needs quite some time and peace and MM to become a monster.


I still estimate that you can get to 1.6-1.7 times your current resource total with just your present planets.
If you expand to jeff's space, let's nudge up that number to an easy doubling.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Why is HE not considered as powerful? Fri, 27 May 2011 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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nmid wrote on Fri, 27 May 2011 21:33

Quote:


But as a 4-5% HP it needs quite some time



A fair bit, since the curve actually is a curve until 2445 or so.

Quote:

Quote:

and peace



Not so sure. I have been researching a fair amount of wartech, and have techtraded much less than the other major powers. I have also built a fleet.

Quote:

Quote:

and MM to become a monster.



Oh, yes.

(In Tenderfoot, my Unarmed Ships rivals everyone else's put together)

Quote:

I still estimate that you can get to 1.6-1.7 times your current resource total with just your present planets.
If you expand to jeff's space, let's nudge up that number to an easy doubling.


You can estimate what you wish, but my resource curve has become flat or almost so.

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