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Annex or Vassalate an enemy Sun, 27 July 2008 02:56 Go to next message
Factor is currently offline Factor

 
Chief Petty Officer

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Would you Annex or Vassalate an enemy you defeated?[ 17 votes ]
1. Vassalate em! 10 / 59%
2. Annex (Kill them all! Take no prisoners!) 7 / 41%

In a big game, when an enemy is mostly defeated(and the enemy admits defeat), usually two possibilities occur. either you annex them (total annihilation) or vassalate them (turn it into a vassal/slave race).

what are the pros and cons of each action?


[Updated on: Sun, 27 July 2008 03:00]

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Re: Annex or Vassalate an enemy Sun, 27 July 2008 08:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

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A honourable death is the least I can give to a worthy enemy.

[Updated on: Sun, 27 July 2008 08:15]

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Re: Annex or Vassalate an enemy Sun, 27 July 2008 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
beanspoon is currently offline beanspoon

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

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I can't really say one way or the other. If I respected my enemy, I would annex them, and retain their dignity. If they are unworthy of such respect I would vassalate them.

Very Happy It's fun being all high and mighty



The goat whats YOU.

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Re: Annex or Vassalate an enemy Sun, 27 July 2008 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

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Vassalate!

Really, my preference is to incorporate them into my empire, but the Stars! community views this as cheating. In actual human history there are occasional instances of an expanding empire committing complete genocide against another people, but this is the exception and not the rule. Usually and expanding empire will incorporate conquered peoples, gaining the advantages of the conquered race's technologies and culture.

I've played a couple of Stars games where conquering empires would obtain the conquered's passwords and history files and then play the conquered as well as the conquering. This is my preference.

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Re: Annex or Vassalate an enemy Mon, 28 July 2008 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

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vonKreedon wrote on Sun, 27 July 2008 13:17

I've played a couple of Stars games where conquering empires would obtain the conquered's passwords and history files and then play the conquered as well as the conquering. This is my preference.


Sounds good in theory, but isn't it micromanagement hell in practice? Also, who gets to decide when you can claim an enemy as a vassal - if someone starts off and quickly attacks a nearby pessimistic enemy, that could be gamebreaking (imagine a -f quickly overpowering the neighbouring HP).

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Surrender or die! Mon, 28 July 2008 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

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The real question is will the defeated surrender or fight to the end. As this is a game, and not reality, I'd fight to the bitter end unless I had great respect for the eneym and wanted them to win (and most likely some one else to lose) more then I wanted them to lose. Fighting to the end is faster, and at least you can hope to have some negative impact on down your enemy. Surrendering is a fair amount of work for something that isn't much fun.

To introduce surrendering into a game, you'd have to give it rules such as 10x score and be at war for 5 or more turns. And then when the surrender is forced, the winner gets the password and changes it, and the loser can no longer play. There should probably be a few turn delay, to simulate the difficulty of intergrating an alien race. And, maybe some one could pay (have more points left over, or say 20 points to defenses) for 'never surrender' LRT. All of this would take a non-playing host or a neutral party to manage.



- LEit

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Re: Surrender or die! Mon, 28 July 2008 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Effluviant Walrus is currently offline Effluviant Walrus

 
Senior Chief Petty Officer

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How would the game detect whether players are "at war" rather than just having eachother set to "enemy"? Players can be neutral or even working together even if the set eachother to enemy depending on the diplomatic restrictions of the game.

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Re: Surrender or die! Mon, 28 July 2008 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

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One player would announce to the third party and the other race (and possibly everyone) that it's 'officially at war' with another race, that would be the start date. Unofficial wars don't count. This would be part of the game setup rules. You wouldn't do this to any game, it's have to be setup this way. And any diplomatic restrictions would have to be worked out to mesh with these rules as well by the person setting up the game.


- LEit

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Re: Surrender or die! Mon, 28 July 2008 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

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Getting a race to surrender and get incorporated into your empire really is not that difficult.

Very few players fight to the end, most at some point accept their defeat and simply drop from the game.

Yes, adding another race to your game play greatly increases the MM and other game time necessary to get your turn done. And the added complexity increases the chances that you will make a mistake. Such are the problems of empire.

Determining who the race surrenders to is really simple, the surrendering race surrenders to whomever the player wishes. So yes, there is a strong diplomacy aspect to this in that as you kick the race's ass you have to be likable enough for the player to surrender to you instead of the more normal dropping out of the game with no replacement.

Regarding rules to cover such play, I don't think that they are necessary. However, I have thought at times of hosting a game that included the following:
- No race may simply drop out, instead you must surrender your passwords and H file to another race as well as to a non-playing third party.
- Once the passwords have been surrendered they may never again be changed.
- The surrendering race may give the passwords to anyone else they want and may themselves continue to play if they wish.

The idea here is to better simulate empire building with all the complexities involved in incorporating other races, including the advantages of new exploitable territories and technologies and the disadvantages of rebellions. But there is no need to go to these lengths to have races surrender to and be incorporated into a growing empire.


[Updated on: Mon, 28 July 2008 12:33]

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Re: Annex or Vassalate an enemy Tue, 29 July 2008 02:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Factor is currently offline Factor

 
Chief Petty Officer

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what about the concept of vassalating without takign their password, viceroyalty. either appointing the defeated leader to play the race as a slave race, or execute the leader and get someone from the bar to take over. (saves the micromanaging nightmare on 2 races)

in the movie 300, the persan king offers Leonidas to be warlord of greece as a vassal to persia.
Though there's a chance of rebellion.

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Re: Annex or Vassalate an enemy Tue, 29 July 2008 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Factor wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 08:19

Though there's a chance of rebellion.

The race you take over should be played with an illegal serial. Wink

(yes, let's add more MM, reason the more to just kill them off!)

mch

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Re: Annex or Vassalate an enemy Fri, 01 August 2008 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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I'd send a few fleets and bombers to their HW and other manufacturing worlds, forbid them to build any other SBs on pain of death, and not to build any unauthorised war vessels. If they refused, I'd say "That's okay", and blitz them until only the terraforming remained. No playing multi races for me.

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Re: Surrender or die! Fri, 01 August 2008 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

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vonKreedon wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 18:32

Getting a race to surrender and get incorporated into your empire really is not that difficult.

It might be so, but, why bother? You beat them, your race/empire/skills are superior. Even if they had toys you hadn't. Twisted Evil

Unless you want to voluntarily handicap yourself... Rolling Eyes



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Surrender or die! Sat, 02 August 2008 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

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There is no handicap, other than increased MM, unless both the conquering and conquered races have the essentially the same habs and same tech items, or if there are handicaps imposed by game rules. If the conquered race has substantially different habs then immediately your empire has substantially increased the number of exploitable planets. If the conquered race has ARM then immediately your empire has the ability to produce gateable RMs. If the conquered race is CA then immediately your race has the ability to produce OAs. If the conquered race is SS then immediately your empire has the ability to produce RBs and Ultra Cloaks. etc etc.

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Re: Surrender or die! Sun, 03 August 2008 04:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

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vonKreedon wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 17:45

If the conquered race has substantially different habs then immediately your empire has substantially increased the number of exploitable planets.

That would be a powerful reason to "vassal" them indeed, instead of just destroying them. It would also exponentially increase the possibility of a revolt when the vassal planets grew stronger. Deal

Quote:

If the conquered race has ARM then immediately your empire has the ability to produce gateable RMs. If the conquered race is CA then immediately your race has the ability to produce OAs. If the conquered race is SS then immediately your empire has the ability to produce RBs and Ultra Cloaks. etc etc.

And yet none of those toys when used *against you* were enough to beat you. So you shouldn't need them, unless you want to speed up your steamrolling over the rest of the galaxy. Twisted Evil



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Surrender or die! Sun, 03 August 2008 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
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m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 03 August 2008 04:49

And yet none of those toys when used *against you* were enough to beat you. So you shouldn't need them, unless you want to speed up your steamrolling over the rest of the galaxy. Twisted Evil


I'm not sure I agree with you there - it's easy enough to imagine a situation where you have four players, A and B, who are huge empires at war with each other; and C and D, two much smaller empires - if C defeats D, it's going to want any advantage it can get in order to try and become a third major player in the rest of the galaxy alongside A and B.

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Re: Surrender or die! Wed, 06 August 2008 04:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

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Adacore wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 04:32

it's easy enough to imagine a situation where you have four players, A and B, who are huge empires at war with each other; and C and D, two much smaller empires - if C defeats D, it's going to want any advantage it can get in order to try and become a third major player in the rest of the galaxy alongside A and B.

You'd have trouble getting the D race to submit to you and not to one of the bigger guys, or even having the big guys leave you alone while you so conveniently become a major player. Twisted Evil

Like many other things that can be done in Stars! Vassalage is not really meant to happen, even if it can be interesting at times. Would be fun seeing a comprehensive set of rules for it applied to some games. Sherlock

And while we are at it, we could craft some rules for *capturing* ships in battle too. Pirate



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Surrender or die! Wed, 06 August 2008 09:22 Go to previous message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

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Protectorate is more common than vassel.

After you have stomped all over someone they are normally not very responsive to helping you do it to someone else.
On the other hand lots of players will help you if you offer them protection from the player that has been stomping them (and even the opportunity for revenge).



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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