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[Updated on: Mon, 26 February 2007 16:14]

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This sounds ilke a reasonable design where I would just change details, depending on the game settings.

There is a great article on AR at http://wiki.gible.net/index.php?title=AR_Guide_by_Leonard_Di ckens_-_Revised:_21st_September_2000

Hope that helps...

Andreas / wizard

P.S. AR is not the ideal race to begin with, but it is fun

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[Updated on: Tue, 27 February 2007 10:02]

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[Updated on: Wed, 28 February 2007 01:51]

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iztok wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 07:51

Hi! velvetthroat57 wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 01:13 Small, packed is pretty standard for testing. ... and gives pretty unreliable and overrated results if testing for a particular game, that isn't run in a small packed. BR, Iztok

I agree to that, i hope to achieve in small packed 25k in 2450 with a 3i AR - even communist would have to bow before such godly wonders.

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Question wrote on Mon, 26 February 2007 22:33

I cant seem to get a decent race design for AR...especially if i take the ever popular rad immune.

ISB, NAS, RS
0.22 to 4.40; -140 to -44; IMMUNE ( 1 in 5 as close to 1 in 4 as it can be )
15% PGR (with option to take LSP & 16%)
resource divisor 10
Energy and construction cost 50% less, propulsion and weapons cost standard amount, bio and electronics are expensive to research
2 rw points to mineral concentrations

If you really want IFE then make propulsion also expensive and take IFE+NRSE. That is however antithematic for radiation immune AR so better have gravity immunity on that case (with wide radiation and narrow temperature).

With races like these ... in tiny packed acc bbs single race testbed ... i get constantly over 30K resources by year 2450. Absolute ceiling in a tiny packed was 43K @ 2450 and race was very similar ... had weapons expensive invested into hab. 30K is not that easy for AR novice ... however if you get even 20K then you may win games lot simpler than with 35K resources JOATs or something like that.

[Updated on: Wed, 28 February 2007 12:18]

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Hi!

Kotk wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 13:44

With races like these ... in tiny packed acc bbs single race testbed ... i get constantly over 30K resources by year 2450.

And I'm getting constantly, regardless of PGR (from 15% to 18%) 22k with 1k variance.


I better shut up regarding AR ( ), and use something I can monster .

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Wed, 28 February 2007 14:10]

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Hmm but 22K is abundantly OK. Who needs *monster* tag in multi-player game? I usually took no NRSE, no NAS and/or ARM to keep me weaker in PBM.

May i ask why 17% or 18%? What you do with pop of these? Having PGR above 15% with AR is pointless i think. With LSP? OK then 16% is max, however 15% gives 25K even with LSP. 14% PGR gives also ~25K resources without LSP in a stable manner. Also ... Ultras are enough almost until 2450.

12-13% PGR will be a bit weak of course but 150-200 RW points gained give some goodies ... say ARM costs only 70 RW points and miners are *bang* 2x cheaper. About monster tag i already told.

Colonize and never care about 25% hold ... not in station, ultra or deathstar go freely below it. Colonize it if it is still red, it will be a better yellow once it becomes yellow.

At 2430 i have had ultra tech for turn or two in well-done testbed. Ultra is meant for defense, penscanner it provides and for building miners. Station is too expensive for a crap orbital what it is. There are NO planets with above 120 000 pop @ 2430. HW station is 12% full, docks below 25% hold, Ultras at 6% hold.

[Updated on: Wed, 28 February 2007 15:56]

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Hi!

Kotk wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 21:26

Colonize and never care about 25% hold ... There are NO planets with above 120 000 pop @ 2430. HW station is 12% full, docks below 25% hold, Ultras at 6% hold.

That should do the trick - spreading the pop almost like the race is 3-immune. Thanks!

Br, Iztok

[Updated on: Wed, 28 February 2007 17:29]

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iztok wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 00:29

That should do the trick - spreading the pop almost like the race is 3-immune. Thanks!

3-immune AR spreads as equally it only can but 1-immune spreads about 25% to yellow compared to 100% planet. 120 000 hold until you have all yellows at least 30 000 pop. Then 240 000 hold until you have all yellows at least 60 000 pop and so on. Of course take greens always in first order but these are taken by 2420-2425 usually.

The logic is that 125 000 pop gives ~400 resources (energy is ~13 since energy and construction should be about same with both cheap.). Notice that for neighbour -F it takes 400 000 pop to have resources that you got with 125 000 pop. Also poor -F builds mines and maybe even defenses. AR can of course grow it double there (wasted valuable 5 years with 15% PGR) but then it is +170 resources (not so bad for LF of pop but still) and +15 mines only. For normal energy AR the numbers are 370 and 155 since its energy is about 11 when cheap energy AR got 13.

Better idea (both in testbed and in multiplayer) is to have that second LF of pop spread between 3-4 nearby weaker places!

It gives over 200 resources (about like 2 LFs of -F pop) and 70 (see +55!) mines there. Other races pay 150 resources for these mines for ARM'less AR they cost ~270 resources and almost 100 ironiums in this phase of game! Now they did come effortlessly and AR builds 3 docks to use their fruits now and then. Spreading better means more minerals to spread on etc.

Colony does all important things: it fuels and casually builds, it defends your territory and it terraforms. It does not grow much (yet) but with 15% PGR you will be swimming in population too soon. May not look like it at 2430 with such HE-sized colonies but at 2450 deathstars of the 90%+ value planets are at their 33% hold as minimum.

Other point for using measure units of 30 000 pop is the -IFE logistics! Simple table how QJ5+ 2 tanks LF (should have these at year 2411) with 300kT cargo on board will fly:
155 l

[Updated on: Wed, 28 February 2007 23:52]

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Hehe, there goes all my thunder. Oh well, I always knew I hadn't 'discovered' anything new, stars being so well known now

But yeah, kotk pretty well covered what I've been hinting at about what playing as 3i drums home about how to play AR - don't wait for population holds, don't wait to colonise yellows or near-yellows (or reds, for that matter.) Spreading out helps both econ and (perhaps more importantly for AR) early minerals.

I'm not sure I'd be keen to put 25% of my pop on yellows in early game though, with a low growth race. Population is still a limited resource that needs to be multiplied. I'll put *something* down everywhere, but not all that much until the empire is nudging at 20%+.

Not sure about trying to live without IFE though. FM Coloniser flies quite far all by itself, and that for me is important for early game. I'm not quite sure that the comparison between FM MF and QJ5 LF is really all that fair - will the points to IFE really slow down getting LF? IFE isn't much benefit in packed though, to be fair, assuming ISB.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 00:26]

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Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 07:20

I'm not sure I'd be keen to put 25% of my pop on yellows in early game though, with a low growth race.

I probably failed to describe it. Since i take better planets first they just grow into breeder size too fast. Yellows actually never contain above 15% of my overall population. Seem to produce 10% resources so they feel to be overmanaged. But the picture changes at the moment they turn green then they suddenly feel like to low populated. If to analyze the yellows from 2430 again at 2450 these are 15% of national production produced with ~10% pop (that it is the very butter on bread, the difference between 30K race and 35K race).

Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 07:20

FM Coloniser flies quite far all by itself, and that for me is important for early game.

Dropping IFE is possibly hurting in a normal or sparse density universe where IFE-less early logistics may be without fortunate location colonies almost impossible. It is not Pinta. Pinta can be boosted cheaply and booster can be reused. It is that QJ5 MF thing that is for short distances. Marrying SFX to every MF ... nah that is too high price. OTOH AR got to spread like nuts not hit QS-like or HP-like pop levels first.

In dense and in packed it feels liveable since MF has always some close usage. If in doubt about dense drop PGR to 14% and make 1 in 3 race and it feels like 1 in 5 in packed. The 4-5 useful planets within 150ly colonized by 2410, 4-5 others getting to their 150-200ly targets. HW floor is dry but the MFs carry Pinta scraps already back to HW for very new Pintaes or LF-s.

Few random points (i just try to back up my observations with theory):

* Minerals that are at HW floor limit both race types similarily. Question is who faster uses, who faster reuses, who faster mines minerals elsewhere. Snowball must roll and start minerals are same. The difference is more about who kicks it going faster.

* IFE gives propulsion 1 that makes every of the urgent 14 levels of tech 1

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Carn wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 14:36

What real growth rates do you manage with 15%?

12% growth per year.

In numbers:
2400: 100 000
2450: 29 000 000

Seems possible. At least two testbeds i have with 29M pop.

If that means 29 deathstars each with 1 000 000 population where average colony value is 90% (half are 100% half are 60-99%)... then net 35k resources at energy 18. Such a result i get rarely ... but i have got more than that.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 09:36]

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I reallly want penetrating scanners though . Its very annoying without them. Also IFE to me seems important because of the fuel mizer, it really bites to lose a large portion of your colonists early on because you took too long to get to the planet. About no ram scoop engines...doesnt that mean your fleets constantly have to run back to a starbase to resupply fuel?

Also how do you get a colony to get the resources to upgrade to a starbase? Just shuttle a lot of colonists to them?

No advanced remote mining?

[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 12:27]

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