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Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 15 March 2003 04:02 Go to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 54
Registered: November 2002

Gathling gun or Collodial phaser[ 43 votes ]
1. I mainly use Gathling guns on my ships 7 / 16%
2. Usually I prefer to use Collodial phasers 27 / 63%
3. neither, I'll explain below 9 / 21%

I'm just not sure what is better on my cruisers, Gathling guns or Collodial phasers. I hope you can help me Smile

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Re: Gatling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 15 March 2003 04:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ashlyn is currently offline Ashlyn

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 833
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pueblo CO USA


By the time I finally get to collodial, I usually build a fair amount of ships with them.. the gatlin is next in the research que, but by that time the only thing on my mind is jihads.

Another thing to consider is the range 3 of the collodials and range 2 of the gatlins. A heavier gatlin ship can be easy prey to a lightweight collodial.

I've been known to make a nice gatlin battleship tho... Razz

Gatlins are cool, they fire at all the ships and they have a higher initiative. They make a great mine sweeper and they certainly have their place in the game... but in a cruiser design, I'll probably have to go with Collodials... Rolling Eyes

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 15 March 2003 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OOMatter is currently offline OOMatter

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 71
Registered: January 2003
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

I almost always have better weapons then gatting guns or colloidals by the time I get CCs so my 1st CCs tend to have jihads. Have to warn you though, I'm a newbie to multiplayer., so take that into account when you read my posts.


Because OOMATTER

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icon12.gif  Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 15 March 2003 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 906
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pacific NW

Colloidal battleships are much better than jihad cruisers. Sure, they take a little longer to research, but it's more than worth the effort.
The only time I'd use missile cruisers is if I need a gateable reserve fleet, or if for some really wierd reason I didn't take Construction cheap.


[Updated on: Sat, 15 March 2003 15:59]

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 15 March 2003 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne is currently offline Wayne

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 74
Registered: November 2002
Location: New Zealand
I almost always use cruisers as a missile ship and gatlings usually end up in the wings of any BB's I build.


Wayne

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 15 March 2003 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
Ensign

Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
My choice between the two depends entirely on circumstances. I prefer the gatling, because it can do so much more damage - but if it doesn't get the chance to fire, that's not important.

I go with gatlings when I am sure my ships are fast enough and light enough to close to range, or when my opponents frequently have several tokens in a battle. How fast 'fast enough' is depends on the enemy designs. If they have weapons with range three or more, I want to have either at least a 0.5 speed advantage or be enough lighter to be sure of moving last. An option would be to have ships durable enough to take the extra hits as they creep towards the target, but that approach is, um, sub-optimal.

Since in most of my experience the enemy designs ships with the highest possible weapon range and typically has movement similar to mine I usually end up with colloidals.

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 15 March 2003 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 218
Registered: November 2002
Location: EGR, MI, USA

But wait, Colliodals come before Jihads, don't they.... or are they not the range 3 power 26 green ones at weapons tech 10.. not using Stars! at the moment.


Email me as ----jeffimix@----yahoo.com----
(remove dashes)
The spamatron! run!!!

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sun, 16 March 2003 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002
Location: India
I am not really sure how to answer the poll. Which one to choose in what condition? What is important? Who is your adversary and what design is he using?

Gatling will give you the advantages of high initiative, minesweeping and also the multiple firing if you face a mixed fleet. Secondary advantage is a slightly higher rating in damage points.
However it has 2 main disadvantages: it is much more expensive and only range 3. A secondary disadvantage is that it's one more level of weapon than the colloidal. If you need to build NOW, you may not have the opportunity to do that research.
Oh, and I almost forget that since it's so boranium and ressources expensive compared to green beams, those ships might attrack first the capital missiles, even before the chaff (not tested, depends on miniaturization etc.)

I tend to use the colloidal on Cruisers, but I also have a look at the bazooka if I need an armeed fleet really early in the game. I would use the gatling more as a counter design if I know I have a speed advantage and I need higher initiative. WM can make very good use of that weapon because of that. Still it's expensive and you may not want to commit too much boranium and ressources at that stage of the game.

I use the gatling for my many cheap minesweepers once the cost has been somewhat reduced by miniaturization.

Really, the choice of a weapon instead of another is a matter of the situation rather than an absolute choice. Think for example in counterdesign. You may even have a very punctual advantage at using range0 guns in a game, but generally you will stick to range 2 and 3 beams.

I'm sure Stalwart will give you a way better illustrated and much longer answer Wink

If you have a particular need, please expose your situation (universe, opponents, techs in game and military situation), and we'll try to help you figure out what is the best option.

My my 2 cents

YucaF

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Mon, 17 March 2003 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 583
Registered: November 2002
Location: Where the clowns can't re...

Ok here goes......

It depends on situation (as always). Since I mostly take RS I stray away from the early jihad and save my ironium for later.

Collodial - range 3 and decent damge. I'll take this one everytime (bar explained below) because it's lower tech and lower cost.

gatling - If I've got an SD or someone with lots of mines around me this is the obvious choice... but not on CC's. I like to slap em on scouts and sweep huge areas. It forces my enemy to take out easy targets but he has to split his fleet... which when you've got no minefields leaves planets open to assault.

Jihad - AR's nightmare. If I got an AR nearby and I want his space, this baby takes it all - sweetness.

If I'm IT I'll go for the Jihad because I *should* have an infinite mass gate or two... so that's nice.

If I'm AR aint no way I'll have the spare Ironium Crying or Very Sad

If given the chance though I'd much rather not build ANY warships unless I have to. It's much easier to save the mins and not waste time and effort. Peace is the key to crushing victory in war. Warships only if needed or if I want more space and can't negotiate it.

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Tue, 18 March 2003 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 54
Registered: November 2002
Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for all the tips, I don't need that for a particular situation at the moment, and that's also why I made the question so open. Also, this inspires great posts that explain many situation, situations that I might find myself in some game or another.

UAF commander

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Wed, 19 March 2003 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 74
Registered: November 2002
Location: Varies

Greetings all,

Quote:

I'm sure Stalwart will give you a way better illustrated and much longer answer


I read and obey! Twisted Evil

Now from my own experience one should save the Colloidal Phaser for the BB hull. Why one may ask? When dealling with range 3 beams one has to consider the initiative of fire when dealling with battle as well as movement. If you don't a Bazooka CC will take down a fleet of Colloidal CC's any day as I can garuntee they will both have the same movement, but the Bazooka's will shoot first EVERY time, regardless of range.

Also, if you are considering an early attack fleet the cost of Colloidals will hurt you majorly. Boranium may not be a problem, but the resource cost WILL. You need to have a good 20-30 CC's early enough to take out your enemy before they start building their counters, so having a cheaper and more efficient laser to put on your Cruisers will definately help you.

Now the Gattling design I like to reserve for Basic DD's or a special ops CC, or for a pain in the but Gattling Rogue design. Reason for this is purely for the fact that it has _enough_ armor to take mine hits, and since gattlings are so expensive, I don't need to build them in large quantities. Gattlings are nice indeed, they shoot first, they sweep HUGE amount of mines, and their damage is extremely high compared to others, AND hits multiple targets all at the same amount of damage. All nice and dandy but the cost for both Bor, Resources, and the WEIGHT of the item itself can really hamper you ability to actually USE the design. Now if you are playing against a AR it might come in handy as a Kill Starbase fleet that uses it's multiple targeting to hit not only the starbase but also other ships that come into range without loosing its effectiveness.

With all this in mind let me introduce to you all some of the designs I have seen used in a number of my games as well as some designs I have come up with myself:

Talon:
FF, 3xBazooka, 2xBest shield (Can work with tech 0 shields), DLL7
Porpose: Good early Mass produced Horde design. WM's can use the fule mizer and can STILL get .25 faster movement than the DLL7 design. When built in large enough numbers can actually take down cruisers even though they get the first shot. Horde is the idea here.
Disadvantage: High Accuracy Torps and Cap Missles
Time Frame: 2415-2420 (Though I once got this design by 2413, good old lucky number 13 Twisted Evil )

BlackJack:
FF, 1xBlackjack, 2xBest Shield, DLL7
Porpose: This design can be built around 2415 and be put into a fleet of about 60-120 and sent all over the place. Very deadly design as they move last, meaning that no matter where your enemy moves, you still get a chance to move in and shoot. Very nasty.
Disadvantage: Same as Talon Design and the following ship design
Time Frame: 2415-2420

Pincer:
FF, 3xYak Lasers, Best Shields, DLL7
Porpose: Good counter for the BlackJack as it has the same movement and is also lighter, giving it the ability to move right out of range every turn. The Blackjack wouldn't have a chance...
Time Frame: 2410-2415

Sapper:
FF, 1-3xSappers, Best Shield, Best engine (DLL7+)
Couple this with a Jihad CC design and you basically use the Sappers to move in range to take out the shields before the Jihads start shooting. Very nice if going up against a WM Horde of BC's...
Time Frame: 2420-2425

Basic Cruiser:
CC, 6x Bazooka, 4xBest Shields, 2x Best Engine
Porpose: Just a design meant to be mass produced before your enemy has a chance to counter it with a faster but less shielded design. I have also seen designs with Computers so they shoot first, but all in all it is meant to be cheap, early, and to be put into large numbers. Colloidals will fail with this design due to their lack to be mass produced early enough, the lower init (you need 2 comps to compensate, way to much cost in germ). Manuvering jet can help but if you stick to the basics and just go for the gold, this is a good way to go.
Disadvantages: Large Missle Ships, sappers, BB's, or just a bigger fleet Very Happy DON'T LET THEM COUNTER!
...




"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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A question if I may? Wed, 19 March 2003 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1
Titans of Steel mentor

RIP Hetzer, Nov. 28, 2006

Messages: 139
Registered: November 2002
Location: Hollywood

I've been looking into -f IS designs as of late and if I go with 3.5 cheap tech I'm looking at a fairly long (20+ years) span before decent warcraft can be built. Down the road my cheap research would pay off but starting with 0/1 levels of tech renders me hugely vulnerable. What kind of research settings on the RW would you suggest so that my -f can have a chance to be an early aggressor? The game I'm looking to build a race for is medium. In tiny my current thinking is that for a horde of croby frigates I could almost afford to go with weapons cheap rest expensive. Weapons Con cheap rest expensive is what I'm currently thinking of as the best for small. Does that seem like it would be too limiting for an -f in medium? Start at 3 box would be checked of course Smile

As always any feedback would be gratefully accepted.


[Updated on: Wed, 19 March 2003 19:31]




If you can't trust me, who can't you trust?

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Thu, 20 March 2003 00:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BackBlast is currently offline BackBlast

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year
Duel club Champion 2004
Duel Club Champion 2006

Messages: 215
Registered: February 2003
Location: A Rock

Here is my 2 cents in regards to early beamer designs.

I never use Colloidal Phasers. Except possibly well into the missle phase and I've failed to get heavy blasters yet. My prefered beam is the Bazooka. It has about half the mineral cost as the gatling, and less resources. The range is identical, and the power is roughly the same. The big bonuses the gatling has over the Bazooka is the initiative (very good) and the ability to hit multiple targets (nice once in a while). I generally throw the initiative war out the window before I begin ship design. At least with my beamers I do, except for special role ships. But I want a good ship that will last me a while. So, I generally don't care about initiative. Now the ability to hit multiple targets is not that great. At range 2 you rarely have more than a single target within range. If you DO have multiple targets, your movement will generally be such as to isolate one token against yours. Single tokens are always the most powerful. If your enemy fleet is spread into multiple tokens, and you fielded a respectable numbers of Bazookas in a single token, you win, gatlings or no gatlings. Defensive powers are only amplified by the cheapened cost (larger numbers). As for a mine sweeper... Doesn't one ship generally have enough sweeping power to take out a minefield? So this point is moot in my opinion.

As for range 3... I default to range 2 designs, if someone counter designs me with a lighter, faster (or same speed) ship using range 3. Then I must change my range 2 design or switch to range 3 myself. Now I'm a fan of ram scoops, and those being lighters than their counter parts, I generally am hard to counter design in this way.

Stalwart posted a few ship specific designs for early beamer fleets. I will only comment on hulls and general uses for them.

FF

I am generally not a frigate fan. Frigates have the shortest life span of any ship hull. First, you can lose whole fleets of them to mine fields. This is a very BAD thing. Especially against a neibor SD. They become 'Chaff' class vessels as soon as missles come about, even on cruisers. They are very effective in an early game attack, before too many minefields are around, before missle ships in any reasonable quantity. One of the better anti-horde ships on defence. Light weight means you get to pick your range, which means you get to choose your weapon.

Usefulness as a mainline warship expires with missles.

DD

If you are looking for a horde ship, the DD isn't a bad way to go. It's reasonable base armor can take mine hits in numbers. Add a shield in the general slot, Bazookas for weapons. You have a ship that has a reasonable life span, can be built in large numbers for an early war fleet with the nice cheap beams.

Usefulness as a mainline warship is reasonable against small amounts of Jihads. Better get something better against Jugs or large Jihad stacks.

CC

Better than a DD, higher armor base/shielding allows for longer life. Higher attainable speed. Definatly will replace the aging DD fleets.

Usefulness as a mainline warship is Good against Jihads. Reasonable against Jugs but it gets dicey here.

BC

WM toy only. Very very good. My favorite hull in the game actually. Twisted Evil This ship has a VERY long life span. High base armor than the cruiser for a very similar cost. Only 2 engines like the cruiser. But room for twice the toys, not to mention the movement bonus. This ship can be used up until the nubian era, and into the nubian area in the right hands (read MY hands Cool ) BCs with Mark IV blasters can be built as soon as they are researched and for most of the game there after. I've beat Jug BBs/Heavy Blaster BBs with a stack of Bazooka BCs in my day (what a glorious battle Cool ).

Meta Morph

A good ship, range 3 is recomended on these puppies because of the capacitors you can stack. You need less actual weapons, bringing the costs down somewhat for range 3. Excelent for counter design.

BB

Out of the scope here... I don't think I'd us
...

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Thu, 20 March 2003 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1
Titans of Steel mentor

RIP Hetzer, Nov. 28, 2006

Messages: 139
Registered: November 2002
Location: Hollywood

I have one design that I'm fairly satisfied with as a dual purpose minesweeper/shieldbuster. I'll build a CC with 2 gatlings and 4 sappers. Early on I might go with 4 shields but 3 shields and a jammer is my preference. These ships can survive being caught in a SD exploding minefield and on the battle board the 4 sappers come in very handy and they occasionally even get to eat some chaff. Using CCs as minesweepers is expensive but if your neighbor is a SD with a bad attitude these ships can be very handy to have around.


If you can't trust me, who can't you trust?

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Fri, 28 March 2003 18:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002
I build bazooka cruisers for my early ships.
My next design is almost invariably colloidal battleships or something past that.
I'll not use gatlings on my BBs, because I feel the BB speed tends to be too low for effective range 2's, especially since the base hull init is enough to shoot before a bazooka cruiser, so a colloidal BB will decimate the bazooka cruisers, and also tends to well outstrip jihad BBs in performance, in my experience.

If I have a choice, I won't build missile ships till Dooms, and fight almost entirely with beamers. The amount of damage beamer BBs can do is very extensive. (Especially completely unarmored ones that have range or init on the opposition.)

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Fri, 02 May 2003 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2003
Location: Kentucky

I like to build gatling frigates. They are cheap, like, high intiative and have great staying power as they can be used early in the game as a powerful frigate horde and later in the game as sweepers. I like ships that can be used for long periods since it saves slots.


"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser Sat, 03 May 2003 06:29 Go to previous message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 583
Registered: November 2002
Location: Where the clowns can't re...

I never use frigates for sweeping.. unless in large numbers.

I wont use a ship to sweep mines unless it can take a hit from the minefield in question!!!

It just makes them a bit useless if they can't take a hit or two.

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