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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Tue, 11 July 2006 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joseph - Would you require a conqueror to accept a race who submitted as a Protectorate?

I'm still leary of requiring one to take another race's HW, but I suppose that we could set the rules so that if Race A conquers Race B's HW and B then sues for Protectorate status A must accept, but that if A is kicking B's butt, A can sue for Protectorate status, but B does not have to accept.

Protectorate status would involve surrendering the race's passwords to conquering race, but the subjugated could change them as the start of their rebellion. I think I like this mechanism.

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Tue, 11 July 2006 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Surrender/Rebellion Options[ 5 votes ]
1. The conqueror receives the conquered race's passwords, and these passwords can never be changed. 0 / 0%
2. The conqueror AND a third party recieve the conquered races passwords, the third party "rolls dice" and if appropriate plays the conquered race as rebelling. 2 / 40%
3. The conquered race can sue for "Protectorate" status, and if accepted continue to play the race, backstabbing when appropriate. 2 / 40%
4. Same as above, but if the conqueror takes the conquered's HW, then the conqueror MUST grant "Protectorate" status is asked. 0 / 0%
5. No rebellion. If you conquer a race you get to play it as your own with no nativist revolts. 1 / 20%

Here's a poll on the options that I'm interested in playing. Let me know what you think.

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Tue, 11 July 2006 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar
I went (5). Still prefer a kingpiece idea, which isn't on the list, but vonkreeden made it clear these are just the options he wants to play... Wink ... Personally I'd only be interested in playing with a clear, fixed game mechanic like a HW kingpiece, which doesn't involve arbitary thrid parties. I guess that means I probably shouldn't have voted, d'oh.

I can't see how playing with two people with upload access and competing desires can possibly work... It'd come down to game mechanic of 'who can upload last'. I guess (3) might work if the third party was the only one with upload access, and was email the desired order each turn, then made changes according to the roll. But I think that's a recipe for missed gens.


[Updated on: Tue, 11 July 2006 22:07]

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Wed, 12 July 2006 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2755
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
If option 4 means "two people get to compete on who uploads last", then I don't quite see its practicality. If it were me, the orders would be "upload all these rebellious shods and blow all ships to pieces"... Evil or Very Mad

[Updated on: Wed, 12 July 2006 08:54]




So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Wed, 12 July 2006 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Option 4 means that two or more people may compete for who uploads last. Yes, it is problematical and may mean sniping and conquerors waiting until the last minute to submit turns for conquered races.

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Wed, 12 July 2006 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
I voted for 2.
While I understand what Dogthinkers is getting at with "Clear Game Mechanics"
I was trying more to shape the concept. By fixing the victory conditions (see my previous posts) there is a benifit to being a protectorate if you feel you have no hope of winning (ie you cant have 1st - but you could help someone else to it and they may grant you 2nd as a reward).

You dont necesserally even need to give up the race password (although the conquerer could demand this as one of the conditions of becoming a protectorate). You just have to declare to the Host that you are a protectorate. You also would have to declare to the host when you rebel and stop being a protectorate.

The back-stabbing that this would allow (or even encourage) would be in keeping as terrorist acts are often the first stage in trying to regain freedom.

Think of it like this
You need protectorates to win (its a victory condition).
You need them to be fairly strong (so they can beat up your rival's protectorates)
But not too strong (as they may rebel).
If you treat them harshly they may rebel
If you dont treat them harshly they will get stronger and may consider rebelling.
If you start losing they may all turn on you (blood in the Water) Twisted Evil

Also - if its a fairly big map (medium dense with 16 players??) You will need protectorates in order to not go mad from MM


[Updated on: Wed, 12 July 2006 17:58]




Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Wed, 12 July 2006 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I'm really appreciating Joseph's thinking on this and leaning more and more toward adopting his rules, including the victory conditions.

I also like that he's started into the next phase of developing this game: what are the game parameters? I'm leaning toward the larger, more dense end of the spectrum, Med/Dense-Packed, to give more territory to conquer. I think that at some point one conquering race will suddenly reach a critical mass and snowball everyone else in a hurry, meaning that parameters that in normal games would result in a game that lasts for a year will result in a game that ends suddenly after several months.

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Wed, 12 July 2006 21:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
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Location: Hiding from Meklar
Yeah, I can see where you are going. Thing is, in practice, if I were under heavy threat I would become a protectorate, just to buy myself a decade or so to build up a defence, then I would rebel and ally up with the opposition... At the least there needs to be some sort of genuine penalty for 'rebelling'. Perhaps having 50% of your fleets scrapped at random by host, to represent the losses taken overwhelming those small marine units that you would expect the conqueror to have placed inside all fleet headquarters... That would certainly turn a rebellion into a more desperate affair, and ensure you would find yourself on the defensive for a short period.

[Updated on: Wed, 12 July 2006 21:57]

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Wed, 12 July 2006 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 789
Registered: October 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Quote:

At the least there needs to be some sort of genuine penalty for 'rebelling'

Honourable warmonger method: if you are loyal I make sure you are better off then alone. If you backstab, you become primary enemy... I care much more about hurting you then hurting my rivals.

In my limited experience in normal games, if you look after your friends, they don't often rebel. I've so far had the opposite problem of trying to set up an end game but not enough friends even with help and willingness to cancel treaties want to take a shot at #1.

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Re: Game Idea: Empire Builders Fri, 14 July 2006 18:11 Go to previous message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
Dogthinkers
If you became my protectorate (after I had attacked you a bit and taken your homeworld).
My first orders would be give me scrappers to take my tech up to yours in all the fields I am behind you. Evacuate these 3 planets that I want and set your research to prop sending me scrappers when ever you gain a level. (I would also ask/expect your game password so I could use your intelligence gathering and keep an eye on you Shocked ).

That would be your disadvantage for rebeling, the fact that you pay it upfront when you become a protectorate rather than when you rebel is just tough.

If you dont want to pay you dont become a protectorate and I try to damage you some more to the point when the deal looks good.

Also - those who did rebel and then found they had to sue for protectorate status again would find that the cost of the insurance they had to take out against rebelling again was Huge! Evil or Very Mad

Of course you may find someone who wants to make you a protectorate at much more favorable terms, but the fact that they hold your homeworld would tend to mean they would be the ones setting the terms.
Also if you didnt obay the orders at any point there is nothing to stop them taking punitive measures (though this may cause you to rebel).

This is not to say that you wont find a HP that was made a protectorate by a -f suddenly finding they have been so protected they are now about to pass the -f in score/rank/ships and they may find they can do what they want and even ask for stuff as the -f is more scared of them rebeling than they are of punishment.

What can I say - the game is Empire building, make sure your provinces dont become so rich they feel they would be better off without you. Some players may even find themselves bending knee to those who they once ruled.


[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 16:00]




Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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