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icon5.gif  Ramscoops, which one to use? Tue, 25 February 2003 18:59 Go to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2341
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1

To ram or not to ram?[ 50 votes ]
1. Yes! I love scooping! 24 / 48%
2. No thanks, too much unwanted research. 26 / 52%

In recent discussions on the rgcs (also posted this message there) about NRSE I got curious which of the ramscoop engines are _used_ in a Stars! game.
I have little experience with them but given that often not taking NRSE means taking prop research normal I can imagine that several engines are skipped and never used. At least I do this with normal engines, I always have IFE (with the exception of the "not LRT" game I'm now playing in) and therefore never use the QJ5, LH6, DDL7 or TGD. Early on FM for all ships, AD8 for CCs (not LFs) and than the IS10 for everything else (although the FM is still used for special ships).

So what about ramscoops? The rad ram looks like the cheapest and good to put on minelayer and that sort of ships (unless you have IFE? _DO_ people take IFE with ramscoops??), useless to put on troop transports (unless your pop is adapted to the radiation).
So what do you use on your MFs and privs early on (again the question if there is the FM or not), what on your LFs when you get to that con level (prop9?), CCs, BBs?
Would you really build BBs with the prop12 ramscoop? And lose 1/10 every time you go warp10? How big is that gap between prop12 and prop16 if you have prop cheap? Quick look says about 80k? Seems like a lot when you want that around 2450-60 ...

Comments?

kind regards,
mch

[Edit: added a poll, might be interesting.]


[Updated on: Tue, 25 February 2003 19:06]

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Tue, 25 February 2003 22:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
Lt. Commander

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Micha wrote on Tue, 25 February 2003 15:59


How big is that gap between prop12 and prop16 if you have prop cheap? Quick look says about 80k? Seems like a lot when you want that around 2450-60 ...



The same size as the gap between Weaps 12 and 16 - and nowhere near as vital.
Besides, you'll want Weaps and Con cheap as well, and taking a third cheap field could be painful.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Tue, 25 February 2003 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

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IMO, the biggest drawback to NRSE is primarily the cost and secondarily, the mass of the non-scoop engines. Therefore, I'm reluctant to take NRSE, because every time you build a ship it's much more expensive to build, and heavier. The idea of sticking 4 of those expensive warp 10 engines on each BB I build is too much for me to bear. The fact that ramscoops can scoop fuel when needed is almost irrelevant - I think I'd be willing to forego the extra RW points just to be able to build all my ships with ramscoop engine COSTS, even if that was the only benefit I got from it. With NRSE, you're stuck with far more expensive engines until tech level 23. That's a long time, a lot of engines, a lot of lost resources. Of course, you can always HOPE the MT will show up in a timely manner at the right place handing out the right component to offset this detriment. Mad2 Without NRSE, you get the galaxy mizer scoop which is tiny, inexpensive, very fuel efficient, and does up to warp 9 speed without any fuel use at all, and you get all that at level 20. Wonderful engine.

The biggest drawback to NOT taking NRSE is having to research tech 16 to get warp 10 technology. The only time you'll regret not selecting NRSE is at prop tech 11 to prop tech 15. Before and after that, having the ability to build cheap ramscoops is joy, joy, and more joy. Then there's the increased minefield damage. I'm careful in minefields, but if I considered that a critical factor, I have the option to build any engine the other guy can except the tech 11 engine (but I never do because of the cost). Only other drawback is that obviously, you don't get the extra RW points you'd get with NRSE.

And yes, I DO incorporate the latest ramscoop tech into my ships regardless of which ramsoop it yields, excepting the tech 6 Radscoop. My earliest jihad ships will use the tech 9 ramscoop, later ships will use the tech 12 ones until I research level 16 (and that tends to be a long time, usually arriving on the heels of W20 tech). With each improvement, ramscoops are smaller, go faster without fuel, and become more fuel efficient at high speed, with only a minor increase in cost. The radscoop I almost never build - I don't like it at all. It's very fuel inefficent at speeds beyond warp 6, and the radiation factor usually limits the usefulness of the engine. Warp 6 is too slow even in the beginning of the game. The FM is cheaper, has the same combat speed, and is a far more fuel efficient engine, so with IFE there is never a reason for using the radscoop. There is another engine at tech 8 (sub-galactic ramsoop) that I usually ignore too, the one that goes warp 5 without fuel. It's simply too easy to make the next step up in prop research, and use the FM if necessary in the meantime.

All things considered I'd rather not take NRSE, but IFE I always take if I can possibly swing it, because with the FM engine I can ignore prop research for a long time if I need to focus my resources elsewhere, and I can go warp 9 for long distances even in the beginning. Warp 9 from the beginning is the most important consideration there.

If I can't afford IFE without NRSE, usually I won't take either. I prefer ramscoop engines even if it means I can't have IFE, but then that tech 6 radscoop may come in handy for those early destroyer warships. I might consider going with extremely high rad habitat range too, in that case, with wider hab ranges in gravity and/or energy to compensate. The "neither LRT" preference over IFE/NRSE combo I'm sure, is most arguable of all that I've stated above.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Wed, 26 February 2003 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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IMHO, thinking about what I want to achieve, which is WINNING a game, instead of having nice ecological ships, going PROP16 is per se enough not to want it.

You get nothing from Prop12 to 16, and it's expensive.

To make it cheaper, you would have not to take Prop +75%, that's a lot of point (someone mention Prop normal, what for?)

My priorities for research is Weapon all the way to 20/24/26 and Construction to 13 ASAP, while getting at some point En10, Elec10 or 11 and Bio7 (at best, I like the organic on BB's). I want some warp9 efficient engines ASAP but I generally use extensively the FM until I really need lots of warships, and if I have the ressources I go to Prop11 for the w10 engine, then maybe pr12 for the jets (it's already expensive from 11 to 12) - What I mean is that I get the propulsion goodies once I can at least defend myself. I will rather build ARM Nubians with heavy and expensive warp9 engines than Jugg BB's with very nice warp10 ramscoops. In a fight, my ships win and I get the enemy's minerals to compensate for the cost Laughing

So if I take Prop+75%, why would I research Prop above level 12? OK, maybe when I have Weap26, Con26, En15 and Elec19, OK, I can spend some ressources on Prop. But the other techs are better, as simple as that. Yes, warp10 is expensive with the green engine. But then if I can deploy Doomsdays while my enemy is trying to get that Prop16 ramscoop, I will certainly get an edge, probably and advantage and maybe I will simply kill him.

Prop and Bio are boring fields to research once you have the basics. This is something I think the mods are trying to change so you have to think more in your choices in race design, which I think is a good thing. But for the standard Stars, unfortunately, there is a winning recipe of priorities: Weapon cheap, then if you can, Con cheap or normal, then if you can (starts to be difficult), En or El normal (depends on PRT mainly), then Prop and Bio +75%. And that means NRSE unless you want to play all the game at warp9 (possible in smaller universes)

I have played with and without NRSE, and when I had it, it always took me a long time to get good ramscoops (because I COULD NOT afford to loose the research race against my opponents to get those nice scoops), and I had little advantage beside the cost. Taking Prop normal took away precious race points from me and I could feel it in the economy. And what do I do with my cheap Prop once I have Prop16? What is the use of the reduced cost to get to Prop26?

Engines are expensive but compare that to the total amount invested in weapons and what those get you...

I can even give you an example: in a game I was opposed to a WM being myself a WM (both with IFE/NRSE). He had more ressources, in fact he was way ahead of me, although I was 2nd. He started building Jihad BB's with nice warp10 engines. A nice army. He built also minibombers with those engines. Then he sent his army at me. I had Prop 9 and only a bunch of BCs! However, I already had the Jugg. I made very careful calculation and simulations, and determined what I needed to do to destroy his army: I knew I was going to have to loose 3 planets, but meanwhile I could buy at least 10 years of time if they resisted well. While his ships were approaching I designed a special BB with 12 Juggernauts each, high initiative and the rest very cheap: no armor (he had neutronium), bear shields (like him) and FM engine! I built those like mad. I also added a special fast sapper design. The objective was to stop his army or in 10 more turns I would be destroyed to the point of not being able to come back.

And it worked! While he was bombing my 3rd planet, I had enough ships to annihilate his whole army! They were not nice, but they were cheap enough to be able to build almost twice as a nice design. They were fuel hungry, not very well protected, but I got his minerals and stopped his assault. If I had tried to build nice powerful, fast BB's, I would not have had enough to stop him. He was in shock, I was delighted. Those ships were a pain in the **
...

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 27 February 2003 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

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Maybe you spend more resources on NRSE engines than I spend in prop research; ever think about that? I build a LOT of ships.

I'll respectfully disagree with most of your viewpoint. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Different strokes for different folks.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 27 February 2003 02:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ninja_squirrel is currently offline ninja_squirrel

 
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My question is, just how important is it to have those Warp 10 engines, and does it outweigh the advantage of having vastly superior vessels in the late game? The Galaxy Scoop uses almost no fuel at warp 10.

I suppose this depends on the game situation. If you get involved in heavy combat early on, then you're going to want that better battle speed afforded by having Warp 10 engines, but if you can keep it down to skirmishes, are faced only with less powerful empires, or manage to set yourself up in a peaceful environment long enough to hit Prop 16, then boom, you've got the edge for the rest of the game versus anyone who took NRSE in terms of ship cost economy, and in fleet manuvers. Not to mention the trade potential in being (most likely) the only race in the game who can build ships equipped with the Galaxy Scoop, a godsend for scouts and transports, as well as combat ships.

This also changes based on map settings. On a larger map, I can see that having warp 10 capable ships early might afford a noticeable advantage in terms of early expansion rates, but it's not so important on smaller maps with dense star clusters. On the flip side, the larger maps give you the time to build up more tech levels before things start to get crowded, and you would tend to find yourself with a much larger economic base for all that extra research.

It also depends on your allies. Tech trading could help you a great deal in keeping up in the weapons race while you build your prop up.

I'm not a very experienced Stars! player yet, but I'm just trying to look at it from every angle.



The Dopelar Effect:

The tendancy for stupid ideas to seem more intelliegent when they come at you rapidly.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 27 February 2003 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
Chief Petty Officer

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Greetings All,

Quote:

My question is, just how important is it to have those Warp 10 engines, and does it outweigh the advantage of having vastly superior vessels in the late game?


Well here is my Response friend: What are the parameters of the game you wish to pursue? In order to establish a true answer for this question you must take into mind what your surroundings are going to be like, when you plan to attack, and what your PRT is going to be. For one easy answer to this question is that if you have IT as a PRT, it is always suggested to go with NRSE (And occasionally, if not often, CE) as yourstargates have the ability to have Unlimited Mass both in Late game but pretty early on in the game as well.

Now since that answer is rather obvious, you are probably wondering when it would appropriate to have ramscoops on a regular Basis. To be honest it depends not only on your universe size but also your timed plan of attack. In that effect one must look at the Different Time Frames of a game. Let me explain:

Tiny Game: Having NRSE Will not hurt you here, and in fact will actually help you due to the fact that it takes 2 years to get from point A to Point B with a Warp 10 engine, sometimes 3. Stargates in that effect are not really that important, though if you are playing a WM -f with IFE/NRSE/CE then you can horde some rather cheap gatable DLL7 Cruisers, or even horde frigates for that matter. Wars In this size universe usaully last until 2450-60 (If not sooner), which is sadly to early to take advantage of that Ramscoop tech anyways.

Small: In this size game the game is prolonged a bit till 2470 to 2480 (again, if not sooner) but again, the only time you will see to many ramscoops will be on smaller craft due to the fact that this is around the time when players are mass producing Battleships which carry the Warp 10 engine for faster Beamer Movement and use Larger Missle Boats to finish out the game. Again it is rather easy to get from point A to point B. There are exceptions to this, for example if you tech trade prop for weapons or con tech, it is viable to get those ramscoops that you want so much, though I hate to say it but you wouldn't really get a taste of its real advantages.

Medium+: In these size games Wars and the like are going to be prolonged in the hopes that players will get a foot hold into the universe. Having Ramscoops will indeed help here, especially for the races who plan to be on the offensive all the time. Again IT is one of the ONLY exceptions to this rule.

Just try to figure out when you plan to attack, and if that propulsion tech is really worth the wait. For example if you have *enough* tech to have a HUGE advantage over everybody else, but you decide to wait a good 80k worth of resources to get the tech you want... by the time you get it you loose that HUGE advantage... and sadly, those ramscoops, although cheap, are not going to help you...

Now I know you like the idea of having cheap engines and gatability. If that is the case try to start the game with a handful of Frigates and take advantage of their shield stacks. Later on Get cruisers that are gatable, and while you distract your enemy with a decent size fleet (fleet of about 20-30 and take it to their HW while you research) and get that 300/500 stargate, or if you have prop cheap, the 150/600 stargate. In some cases one is definitely better than the other, but when you are using NRSE, it is probably because you want an early advantage over your enemies, using that advantage to keep them constantly protecting their own space while you research and build up a bigger fleet for them to chase around. Though those who go with basic Ramscoops are usually the ones who plan on taking the game PAST the 2470 mark, where those Missile Boats are going to need the fuel after Rampaging through 10+ years of movement in Enemy space. Also keep in mind that as the game gets bigger, so does the space you have to span to get those ships together, making gatability and longevity a key factor, but for those games Tiny to Small you have
...




"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 27 February 2003 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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Good points Stalwart,

My POW is probably biased by the fact I never play in more than medium universes and like early action, hence the IFE/NRSE combo preference. I can't stand those games that drag on for months without action (or me being crushed for taking the risk of HP race design). I also never seem to find the points to have that Prop at less than +75% fitting into my designs. In fact all this is really personal preference and play style and as Zoid said, has little to do with a real game advantage.

I was mainly focusing on speed rather than the cost, but of course in a large or huge universe, your final economy is more important than the speed at which you developed it.

Regards,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Thu, 27 February 2003 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
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Greetings all,

Quote:

My POW is probably biased by the fact I never play in more than medium universes and like early action, hence the IFE/NRSE combo preference.


I completely understand my friend (that is if POW was meant to be POV Razz ). I have actually been growing fond of the IFE/NRSE/CE combo for those tiny blitz games. Although 50% of an engine cost isn't that much for that IS-10, and that 10% chance of engine failure isn't that great... if you have the advantage, and your enemy is running from you for it not to hurt that much, that 10% failure doesn't really matter that much because your enemy KNOWS he is going to loose his Starbase and is just trying to move his ships... which just works more towards your advantage by keeping him on the run while you research Twisted Evil

The key advantage of having that NRSE is the fact you get your engines that you USE early, and the DLL7 isn't that expensive, it is literally VITAL. To get a ramscoop even close to equivalent, (which by the way is STILL heavy, Ramscoops get lighter over time) you have to research 2 more levels of prop. While you are doing that I will already be building either Frigates with the DLL7 while you are building DD's of the same ilk but with ramscoops that "seemed" like a good idea at the time.

CE can ease off that pain if you know how to work it well enough. Besides it makes building those Frigate Hordes that much easier, as the cost of Frigates are dropped by 6 resources and Iron by 5kt. When you are building Hundreds of these small frigates compared to a few of the DD's, that comes out to a lot more frigates you can build. Now if you have a DLL7 AND the Frigate hull, it is obviouos you have the StarGate 100/250. Who needs ramscoops?

In larger games though, those Ramscoops become very important purely due to the fact you are going to want Cheap Gatable designs that you can stack in large numbers and get from point A to point B in no time flat. If anything, a game set in a Medium Universe or larger I would suggest the use of Ramscoops. Though some tips of the trade: Don't use SS/WM unless you really plan to take out 2 neighbors BEFORE 2470 (you need that much to match those "other" Econ Races). If you are playing HE... get ready for a headake. Ramscoops are VERY important here, but whatever you do don't choose IFE as you don't need it. Stick with the basics and use the points for a better econ. JoAT/IS/IT and AR pretty much excell here as those Super Econs usually take a good sized galaxy for it to work. And of course SD would work, but as the game gets larger it becomes imposible to get enough minefields where you need them, unless you have allies doing some of your Minelaying for you...

Me personally, I prefer Small and Medium games, though I do get my occasional sugar rush urge to get into a nice blitz with a friend, but other than that the only time I have NOT used NRSE was with a SD in Small map... had gatable Beamer BB's by 2450, turned out to be REALLY nice coupled with those overcloaked Super Minelayers going Warp 10 without anybody seeing them... Twisted Evil

Oh well... just me rambling on again (haven't been in for a while... trying to keep up on things Very Happy )

Best wishes to all, Stalwart



"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 01 March 2003 08:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
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Hey, I know I'm a begginer and all... but to build the Galaxy Scoop you need both NRSE and IFE. So all of you that said that choosing NRSE is bad because you don't get the Galaxy Scoop- you were wrong. Very Happy

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 01 March 2003 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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UAF commander wrote on Sat, 01 March 2003 07:08

Hey, I know I'm a begginer and all... but to build the Galaxy Scoop you need both NRSE and IFE. So all of you that said that choosing NRSE is bad because you don't get the Galaxy Scoop- you were wrong. Very Happy


Technology browser
Galaxy Scoop - This engine requires the lesser racial trait 'Improved fuel efficiency' and not 'No Ram Scoop Engines'

The key word is 'not' Smile Okay, you're all right again. Smile



BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 01 March 2003 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
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Oops... My bad Embarassed

I'll just quitly walk away now Rolling Eyes

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 01 March 2003 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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Now, did anyone ever get to use the Galaxy Scoop in a real game against humans? I mean, not as complete beginner or a random race in a max-tech game of course Wink

IFE and not NRSE and so much research just to get one warp free... If this is not a luxury, what is it? Rolling Eyes As a game designer I would have put this engine BEFORE the Transgalactic Mizer Scoop (prop16), so taking the expensive LRT would really mean some advantage, like the Fuel Mizer is. (sorry for the Jeffs Embarassed )

FWIW,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sat, 01 March 2003 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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yucaf wrote on Sat, 01 March 2003 17:43

Now, did anyone ever get to use the Galaxy Scoop in a real game against humans? I mean, not as complete beginner or a random race in a max-tech game of course Wink


Was that a rethorical question? Smile If not than my aswer is: I have. The one time that I played with ramscoops (SD race) I did get to the Galaxy Scoop, a wonderfull engine indeed.
In the end (2514) my techs were 25/26/20/26/26/16 and I was just about to get eny26 and bio17,

regards,
mch


[Edit: forgot elec 26 Grin]


[Updated on: Sat, 01 March 2003 16:22]

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sun, 02 March 2003 00:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
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Greetings Friend,

Quote:

Hey, I know I'm a begginer and all... but to build the Galaxy Scoop you need both NRSE and IFE. So all of you that said that choosing NRSE is bad because you don't get the Galaxy Scoop- you were wrong

To clarify things, the Galaxy Scoop (Warp 10 for free, high tech engine) implies in the tech wizard (and I have found this in real games as well) that it requires IFE, but will _NOT_ be available if you have NRSE.

With that in mind, could you please either PM me or explain to us all where and which game you are able to get the Galaxy scoop if you have both? I could really use it in a duel I am in at the moment... Very Happy

Thanks and best wishes, Stalwart



"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sun, 02 March 2003 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
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Ah dear Stalwart, but if you bothered to read the next to posts after that, you would have seen that BlueTurbit corrected me (I didn't notice that "not" in the tech wizard) and that I apologized for my mistake.

So I'm afraind I can't help you in that duel... Razz

UAF commander

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Sun, 02 March 2003 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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UAF commander wrote on Sun, 02 March 2003 11:23

Ah dear Stalwart, but if you bothered to read the next to posts after that

Laughing It's not Stalwart's fault. It's the trees. The trees and the branches did it. Very Happy

Fool with me once, shame on me, fool with me twice shame on you.




BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Mon, 03 March 2003 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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Micha wrote on Sat, 01 March 2003 16:21

Was that a rethorical question? Smile If not than my aswer is: I have. The one time that I played with ramscoops (SD race) I did get to the Galaxy Scoop, a wonderfull engine indeed.
In the end (2514) my techs were 25/26/20/26/26/16 and I was just about to get eny26 and bio17,



So you took IFE and not NRSE. What was your race design, or at least, the cost on Propulsion? What was the thinking behind this choice? This is no sarcasm, I really would like to understand what was the reason because I myself never find spare points to make that expensive choice instead of a (IMO) better one.

Thanks,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Mon, 03 March 2003 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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Stalwart wrote on Sun, 02 March 2003 00:00

To clarify things, the Galaxy Scoop (Warp 10 for free, high tech engine) implies in the tech wizard ... -snip-



Sorry, have to correct that: it's warp9 for free in the tech browser, unless the data shown is incorrect? I have never tested it.

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Mon, 03 March 2003 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
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Greetings all,

The question arizes about which to choose from: IS10 or ramscoops that take a LONG time to get. Now before getting into detail about this one must look at the pro's and cons of each. Since I have already covered most of these points I will just briefly (to the best of my ability Laughing ) summarize what these are:

NRSE: Short term Engines with High Mass and High Cost. Provides a nice early boost to Warp 10. Good for IT as they have stargates, may be good with WM as their ships are already heavy and the Dreadnaught is by far NOT gatable... and the early boost helps there as well.

IFE: Fuel mizer acts as a decent engine that I have seen last till the 2450's on a lot of ships. Able to go warp 9 with little fuel and can do so for long periods of time. Radiating Hydro Rams are nice on early DD's (warp 6 for free), they are relatively cheap and light weight. Other engines are obtained after longer periods of time, though those engines you do get are Light Wieght, have a "free" speed, and make it possible to gate even Battleships. Compared to NRSE Engines, they are also extremely cheap. Again, this is a Long Term LRT.
One last thing people don't notice is the fact that your engines use up less fuel, even with standard engines...

Niether NRSE/IFE (Basic Engines, and yes, NOBODY has mentioned this yet): You still get Ramscoops, but you don't get the better fuel usage, nor do you get the fancy Ramscoops (2 engines). Anybody ever think of this? Think about it, a race such as SD/IS/or HE can easily get away with this for a number of reasons. SD Gets that nice Mini Mine Layer hull, which with a Fuel Pod, can get to a LONG distance. IS get the Mini-Fuel Xport, also a nice booster. HE, from year one, have the Settlers Delight. If you use anything larger than the mini colonizer with cargo pod needs to consider this again, or either research more into prop. Other than that, you don't gain points nor do you loose points, though you still have ramscoops and decent engines.

As you can see IFE has a LOT of advantages, but in order to achive these advantages you have to be in a game that you believe will be able to last long enough to let you use them. Now if you are playing a race that you think will be spending a lot of time in midspace, either laying minefields or having a lot of ships on the offensive, having ramscoops will really help out there. Races such as SD can REALLY benefit from having IFE as you can go speeds of warp 10 without using up much fuel, while your enemy is chasing those same fleets going warp 10 through the minefields you are laying...

Now thinking about the cost of Propulsion Research. In Stars the primary fields you need to keep your economy going is Weapons and Construction. Propulsion and Energy are Secondary to this. Electronics and Bio being in last. This order of course changes per PRT (For example Energy and Prop are Primary for an AR, Con and Weapons Secondary... Bio Primary for CA... so on and so on). That in mind consider the aplications being used. If you are planing a SD having propulsion norm would work out nice, but in order to keep your economy effective towards the engame it may be wise to have it set to expensive, increase your cost of Factories (not going below cost 9) and instead put the points back into Fac Efficiency or Hab. Reason for this is if you are going for the endgame you are going to want a larger number of production worlds to PUSH your tech to where you want it, fast than the -f and HY can after they have reached their limits or when they can't expand any more. In that event having Prop Expensive can be effective if you can push your economy to it's limits.

So let us look at the possibilities: Medium Dense with so many players. With that in mind you are going to want a pretty decent economy to get to where you want towards the end game correct? Well if you are going to play SD (Bit risky) and you think you are good with your MM, or if you plan to hide your PRT till you can EXPLODE with all your mines (in more than one way Twisted Evil ) then this race might
...




"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Mon, 03 March 2003 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002
Location: India
Nice big message Stalwart, I agree on most of it, although the Rad-Ramscoop is still of little use for me (I like warp8 and 9 for my full freighters, just impossible with this)

My basic question is still unanswered by your post: Why make the choice of the expensive IFE and not NRSE? You are planning for the long run... So why do you want the Fuel Mizer? Is it really so necessary to get it if you are planning to go fast in prop and already had to get your prop level to "normal" or "cheap"? Is this Galaxy Scoop SO superior to the warp8 free scoop that it deserves such an investment? (note that I agree that the FM is an amazing engine) This is what I cannot understand. It is a very expensive race choice, you better put the points somewhere else Confused

If I am planning for the long run, knowing I should have space and time at the beginning, I just do not take IFE nor NRSE. I have done that several times. It's not that nobody has though of it, it's precisely the basic opion for big games...

BTW, I am not sure that the importance of tech fields is in order weap/con then Energy/Prop then Electronics then Bio. Do you always get Electronics 10 or 11 after Prop12? What's so important in Energy past level 10? Just teasing, but you put very "dangerous" generalities in that paragraph (like "CA would go in priority for Bio???!!!") This is a full subject not to be treated in a paragraph Wink

Regards,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Tue, 04 March 2003 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ninja_squirrel is currently offline ninja_squirrel

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 34
Registered: December 2002
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

In a big game, I'd tend to think IFE would be very important just for the improved fuel economy. Remember, IFE makes all of your engines more fuel efficient (ramscoop or not), it doesn't just give you the FM and the GS. And yes, I think the GS is that amazing. The ability for a fleet with no fuel to travel at warp 9 is quite nice, while still being able to travel at warp 10 with the same fuel economy as the best non-ramscoop engine. Also, if you've already taken 4-5 LRTs before NRSE comes up, then it's not a very economic choice.


The Dopelar Effect:

The tendancy for stupid ideas to seem more intelliegent when they come at you rapidly.

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Tue, 04 March 2003 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002
Location: India
ninja_squirrel wrote on Tue, 04 March 2003 10:41

In a big game, I'd tend to think IFE would be very important just for the improved fuel economy. Remember, IFE makes all of your engines more fuel efficient (ramscoop or not), it doesn't just give you the FM and the GS. And yes, I think the GS is that amazing. The ability for a fleet with no fuel to travel at warp 9 is quite nice, while still being able to travel at warp 10 with the same fuel economy as the best non-ramscoop engine. Also, if you've already taken 4-5 LRTs before NRSE comes up, then it's not a very economic choice.


OK, I understand your point, especially if you have played with it in real games. I just had a look at the race wizard, and IFE alone is about 77 race points. This is the equivalent of 6 additional factories operated, or 1.5 improvement in mine efficiency. For going Expensive Prop to normal Prop you need some 50 additional ressources (nota that all those values depend on the other factors in your race design and are therefore approximate). On the long run those ressources invested in economy/mines can give you a serious advantage but how to be sure it pays off compared to getting the Galaxy Scoop? Now thinking at it, in a pre-gen game with max techs it may be worth it...

But then, I have designed some heavy Nubians (with missiles, 570 kT) and with the grey standard engine (Trans Star 10, prop23) (ouch! that's high), the fuel consumption is low enough to cross 3500 l.y. without refueling, at warp10. This is the most efficient engine (50% at warp10 if Guts are correct) Isn't that enough? What's the advantage of the Galaxy Scoop you talk about if you are not going to experiment fuel shortage?

The green standard is 100% at warp10, but OK, it's expensive and heavy. Still, the warp8 for free engine seems good enough Confused

Oh, maybe I'm just not experimented enough in large/huge games to understand. Stubborn Yuca Frita, go back to your small universe, they are waiting for your turn Very Happy

Regards,

YucaF

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Tue, 04 March 2003 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 74
Registered: November 2002
Location: Varies

Greetings,

Well I apologize if I had yet to cover the importance of the Fuel Mizer. If you haven't noticed I mentioned the fact that the Fuel Mizer can last through the majority of the game. I mean think about it: The Fuel Mizer Itself, along with the better fuel Effeciency makes your ships last that much longer (about 15% longer) and with the Fuel Mizer you can go at speeds of warp 9 longer than you can with your basic Non-Ramscoops. That is a HUGE advantage considering you can get to your planets before your enemy can.

Also IFE makes it so you can Gate your ships better. In the late game having warp 9 for free AND being able to be gatable is a HUGE advantage in its own right. And the fact that they are cheaper... Think of it this way. You just built a fleet of lets say 100 BB's with the IS-10. During that time a race with IFE could wait and research the same amount of resources into an expensive Prop field to get an engine similar to the IS-10 (but warp nine mind you) and they would still have resources left over to build a similar fleet but cheaper.

Now if you want the points you COULD go with basic engines, no IFE or NRSE. You still get your ramscoops but you do not get that nice 15% less fuel factor, AND you don't get the bonus of one tech level in your propulsion field to boot. For a lot of people that one level, plus one level from CE can boost a IT to get Warp 8 ingines to start the game with. But all in all it comes down to this: Do you want to have a nice early start, grab the planets that you NEED before anbody else takes them so you can later on have the resources you need to get to the late game... OR would you rather just take the planets that you can by the time you get there, only to find someone else has the planet, and focus on building a massive extremely expensive fleet while your neighbor is building up his empire without running out of fuel and researching the tech that can counter your fleet by the time you get there...

Now in a tiny game this won't be true as once you have the tech it is only 3 years till you can use it. But in a game where it can take 5-10 years to reach the enemy HW... that is a lot of time to research and build up your economy. IFE can really grow in that kind of environment which you find in larger games. IFE can be a HUGE advantage if you know how to use it, but if you don't push it to the limits, if you don't take advantage of that extra 15% fuel "discount", or if you don't push your fuel mizers to go their full distance... then maybey using NRSE is a good idea for you.

As for the Ramscoop, you don't use it on your Transports. That is what the Fuel Mizer is for Razz Other than that you just need to look at what you feel you would use. If you don't use ramscoops that is your playing style. But if you don't feel like build HUNDREDS of Super Fuel Xports to make sure you fleet doesn't run out of Fuel... then those ramscoops REALLY come in handy... especially when those Fuel Xports hit a minefield that just SEEMED to apear out of no-where from a pesky SD or ultra-cloaked SS Terror Fleet...

Hope that answers your question,
Stalwart



"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: Ramscoops, which one to use? Wed, 05 March 2003 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002
Location: India
eh eh I had to use the Tree View to understand to which message you were answering Wink OK you won't convince me of the importance of the Fuel Mizer, because I'm already convinced. In fact I almost never played without it (I think in one game only), and I did push it to the limit, still having a couple of ships with it in the end game.

So you take IFE and not NRSE because of the FM more than the Galaxy Scoop. When you get that last one, you use it, it's logical and clear as a diamond (it is not the core reason for the choice however, it's more about the FM). I therefore agree with you and others that it is an interesting LRT combo, in large/huge games at least Smile

Regards,

YucaF

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