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Medium Game for intermediates(or advanced) that are busy in real life Sat, 07 January 2006 01:08 Go to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
This is a (mostly) vanilla game for players that are a little busy real life, but would like a game. In particular, this game might suit people who are less available during weekends and public holidays.

Aiming for about 8-10 players

Level: Intermediate (although advanced players welcome with some sort of small penalty)

Game version: jrc4

Universe setup:
Medium Normal (assuming 8-10 players, may tinker to give about 30 stars/player)
Maximum minerals: off
Slow tech: off
Acc BBS: off (note: most games are Acc BBS, this one isn't - I don't like Acc BBS)
No random events: off
Public player scores: off
Galaxy Clumping: off
(Any of the last three can be changed if there is close to a consensus amoungst players that they want them changed).
No computer players.

Race restrictions:
* All races allowed
* CA must _not_ have TT, and must have 200 points left over in the race wizard.
* JoaT must either not take NAS, or must have 100 points left over in the race wizard.

Victory conditions: Last man standing (no alliance victories), although there are no restrictions on alliances during the game. Alternatively, if someone gets 60% of the stars or exceeds second place score by 200%, they win.

Pre game alliances are strictly prohibited, and if there is clear evidence of this (or other deliberate cheating), the offending players will be banned.

Host is _not_ playing, but don't send me passwords, as I may sometimes be filling in for one of the players (Mike)

Schedule (this is the important part):
* Use the setting that allows extra turns to run if everyone gets turns in early.
* Start with 1 turn/day.
* Switching to 3 turns/week when:
- 50% of players request it any time,
- 25% of players request it year 20 or after,
- or when 1 player requests it year 30 or after,
whichever comes earlier.
* Switching to 2 turns/week when:
- 50% of players request it any time,
- 25% of players request it year 50 or after,
- or when 1 player requests if year 80 or after,
whichever comes earier.
* Holiday option:
If anyone wants to hold the game on any weekend or public holiday (any country, please specify holiday), please specify at least 1 week in advance (late requests will not be considered), and the game will be put on hold. A timetable of this will be on the main page. The game will not be put on hold during normal weekdays.

Players are set inactive after missing four (unexplained) turns, but will be set active again when they submit a turn. If anyone has to drop, please try to find a replacement first, and let me know you are dropping rather than just stopping submitting turns.

Generation time: let me know what time zone you are in when registering for the game, and what times suit, and I'll try to pick a time that suits the most people.

Cheats:
Read http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=238 7
Chaff and Split fleet dodge are allowed, the other cheats are not (note that this includes the new bug meaning don't set battle orders to 'attack everyone', or 'attack particular player' if there is a starbase present).

For people at the low end of intermediate, I would strongly suggest that as an absolute minimum, you should be able to get 25K resources by 2450 in an Acc BBS testbed, although not necessarily with the race you are playing (should I require evidence of this? or is that a little too much 'Big Brother'), _and_ have had some experience against other people.

If you want to play, please send contact me, and I will send you the email of a neutral person to send:
* Your race
* Your password (and resend your password any time you change it) * What time zone you are in
* What your preferred gen times are (specify local time or GMT). or whether it doesn't matter.
* Some indication of how much you are likely to need the holiday schedule option (if there are several people that will often be away weekends, we simply won't gen on weekends).

My email (it's temporary to set up this game, when you contact me I'll send you a more permanent one, and the email of the neutral person) is roy_dunedin@hotmail.com

Game start: when I get enough races (or definite intentions to play) I will request a slot on Autohost, and give people 2-3 days to get me the races.

This is my first time hosting, so I hope I haven't missed anything else important.

Update: I now have 11 players which is about as many as I want, so anyone else who wants to join will go on a waiting list in case someone drops before the game starts.

Players are:
Strannik
Multilis (depending on how busy he is)
FurFuznel
Wayne
Orange
Vince
Kado
Roman
Steve
Andrea
Mike


[Updated on: Tue, 17 January 2006 07:21]

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sat, 07 January 2006 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strannik is currently offline Strannik

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 18
Registered: July 2005
i think i would give it a try... although i don't know if i can consider myself an intermediate?
i was away from stars! for years, then decided to spend some more time in it again. Wink played 2 beginner games last year, was #2 in the first one and won as a part of an alliance (not the worst part Wink) the second one.
25k by 50 is not a problem. can send u a proof if u'd like.

so if u consider me to be eligible, plz confirm it. i would love to play if we get enough people.

regards,
strannik.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sat, 07 January 2006 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
Strannik wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 05:21

so if u consider me to be eligible, plz confirm it. i would love to play if we get enough people.


OK, you are in, if we get enough people.

An update though: _don't_ send your passwords yet - if I don't get enough players, I might play myself get get the numbers (and if I play, I can probably convince one other person), in which case passwords will be handled by a neutral person.

I noticed a month or so ago that the vanilla games usually fill up pretty quickly, so I'm hoping for the best.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sat, 07 January 2006 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 789
Registered: October 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Quote:

Level: Intermediate

Perhaps allow advanced players with restriction that they may do no diplomacy and set all to enemy?

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sat, 07 January 2006 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
multilis wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 09:18

Perhaps allow advanced players with restriction that they may do no diplomacy and set all to enemy?


I don't think that would be much consolation to the weaker player next door who got steamrolled, and couldn't even try to negotiate a way of staying alive Laughing

If I allowed advanced players, I'd rather they had a ton of points left over in the race wizard.

Unforntunately, I don't have any clear idea how many points left over would make it fair, as I've never played against advanced players to know how much better than intermediate they are, and I've never seen anyone trying a handicap system like that.

I'm open to suggestions though, as I'd rather be inclusive than exclusive.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sat, 07 January 2006 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FurFuznel is currently offline FurFuznel

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Stars! Nova developer
Stars! Nova developer

Messages: 437
Registered: November 2002
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Good day to you!

If Andromeda Strained does not get rolling in the next few days I will send you a race file and join this game. Although I have plenty of experience playing in real life games (ten plus games) and hosting them (on AutoHost) as well... at best I could be classified as an intermediate player.

See you in the future... out among the Stars!

Shadallark / FurFuznel
Time Zone: Saskatchewan Canada (do not observe daylight savings time)



Shadallark <==> FurFuznel
Mental anguish is for those who choose to think - FurFuznel
running Mac OS X 10.6.7

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 02:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne is currently offline Wayne

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 74
Registered: November 2002
Location: New Zealand
I'm interested but where do you want the race files sent. Could be going blind and probably are but I couldn't see an email address.


Wayne

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 02:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
Wayne wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 20:23

I'm interested but where do you want the race files sent. Could be going blind and probably are but I couldn't see an email address.


Oops, knew I missed something. I don't like posting my email address on a web site (relevance on a web page is temporary, but spam is forever) so I've created a temporary one for setting up the game: roy_dunedin@hotmail.com

[Update] Also check your PM box - I've sent the email details there.


[Updated on: Sun, 08 January 2006 03:09]

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 789
Registered: October 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Quote:

I don't think that would be much consolation to the weaker player next door who got steamrolled, and couldn't even try to negotiate a way of staying alive


I'm having a little problem there. Sad I allow negotiations to keep them alive because I am stretched too thin to hold them after anyways and they get mad (want game over quicker)

Quote:

If I allowed advanced players, I'd rather they had a ton of points left over in the race wizard.


Then advanced player can manipulate with diplomacy, that includes fear/uncertainty that gets potential threats to fight each other or to delay their wars till bad timing.

I watched 2 players may send in their warships to attack a weak third without fear of the well armed SS on their backside, yet say not allied with that SS.

IMO no diplomay/attack all at least for me may be less frustrating for others, I seem to have reputation as master of diplomacy, despite efforts to keep sides even.







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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Madman wrote on Sat, 07 January 2006 16:06


If I allowed advanced players, I'd rather they had a ton of points left over in the race wizard.

Unforntunately, I don't have any clear idea how many points left over would make it fair


Thats not a clear solution either. It may work, but probably not. Dependant on the players skill, all of them. I've tried it, and while it slowed me down, it did not fix the issue. As a matter of fact, I thought it was a bad idea in the end.

my 2 cents
-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
mlaub wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 09:04

]Thats not a clear solution either. It may work, but probably not. Dependant on the players skill, all of them. I've tried it, and while it slowed me down, it did not fix the issue. As a matter of fact, I thought it was a bad idea in the end.


Thanks - that's worth knowing, although I gather advanced players have trouble getting games nowadays, which is whay I'd like to include him if I can. Of course Stars! depends on the player's skill - that's the idea Smile. However the skill levels need to be sort of matched up for a game with this much investment.

BTW, we now have 4 to 6 probable players:
Strannik
FurFuznel (depending on whether his other game starts)
Wayne
multilis (if can find a way of handling a more advanced player)
Kado (from the rgcs newsgroup)
Roman Khananov (from the rgcs newsgroup)

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand

Allow advanced players?[ 9 votes ]
1. No - they will overwhelm us 0 / 0%
2. Yes - you learn more playing against better opponents 7 / 78%
3. Yes - but identified who they are, no diplomacy, attack all 0 / 0%
4. Yes - but RW points left over 1 / 11%
5. Yes - but with some specified suboptimal race setting 0 / 0%
6. Yes - any of the last three options 1 / 11%

multilis wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 06:42

Then advanced player can manipulate with diplomacy, that includes fear/uncertainty that gets potential threats to fight each other or to delay their wars till bad timing.


OK, that's an interesting take on it - when I think advanced player, I think more of Stars! experience (all the counter-design stuff, when to micromanage, etc. - perhaps that's because my playing strength is econ) If someone is better at diplomacy as such, I'm inclined to let them got for it - that is a cross-game skill Smile

multilis wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 06:42

IMO no diplomay/attack all at least for me may be less frustrating for others, I seem to have reputation as master of diplomacy, despite efforts to keep sides even.


A clarification here - by attack all, do you keep just that option in the battle settings, or that you don't play favorites attack on all sides more or less evenly (as you would against AIs)?

I've set up a poll to get some feedback on this - I will of course point out that I've got to make the final decision.

I'm kind of wishing now that I'd put Intermediate/Advanced in the game settings now, but that's not a change to make partway through.


[Updated on: Sun, 08 January 2006 19:13]

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Madman wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 17:38


Thanks - that's worth knowing, although I gather advanced players have trouble getting games nowadays, which is whay I'd like to include him if I can.


Most don't play at all anymore. The time investment for some top level games can be daunting, as you have to play near perfect to win. Plus, it is tough to look into the future and see if you will have time to play in 6 mos, when it gets heated.

Quote:

Of course Stars! depends on the player's skill - that's the idea Smile. However the skill levels need to be sort of matched up for a game with this much investment.


You could go with a team game, if you get enough advanced players interested. Spread out the talent.

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
mlaub wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 13:21

Most {advanced players} don't play at all anymore. The time investment for some top level games can be daunting, as you have to play near perfect to win. Plus, it is tough to look into the future and see if you will have time to play in 6 mos, when it gets heated.


Hmmm ... that's my reason for not playing even though I consider myself intermediate (I'm playing in a duel instead), although I'm trying to mitigate that with the game settings.

Quote:

You could go with a team game, if you get enough advanced players interested. Spread out the talent.


A good idea for a future game maybe.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Sun, 08 January 2006 21:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strannik is currently offline Strannik

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 18
Registered: July 2005
ok, my 2c Wink

if we get 2-3 advanced players and 6-9 players overall, then mb we could make up teams of, say, 1 expert and 1-2 intermediates. the idea is to get 2-4 more or less equal teams. somebody would have to remap the galaxy so each team ends up in the same area. Smile we could assign teams randomly, not letting people make specificaly tuned up races, we could let advanced players choose their teammates before the game starts, or we could allow special race setup tuned up for team needs.
such a game would require a lot more setup work though... Sad and i don't really know if it's worth it or if somebody neutral will volunteer to do it. Smile (if Madman will be playing, which i hope. Wink )

considering "no diplo, no allies, all enemy" setup for experts - imho it's difficult to enforce it... basicly, this will then end up in advanced players going after weaker neighbours as fast as possible to be able to deal with each other at the end. just my opinion though. Embarassed

imho, banning is also not a good option. there are not many games offered anymore. Sad

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Mon, 09 January 2006 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
Strannik wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 15:58

if we get 2-3 advanced players and 6-9 players overall, then mb we could make up teams of, say, 1 expert and 1-2 intermediates.

Yes, that's a really good idea, but it's another game. I'm already stretching the setup of this one enough by keeping an option to play myself, and trying to allow advanced players.

quote

considering "no diplo, no allies, all enemy" setup for experts - imho it's difficult to enforce it... basicly, this will then end up in advanced players going after weaker neighbours as fast as possible to be able to deal with each other at the end. just my opinion though.


Not that difficult to enforce really, particularly if there's only one. Remember there is someone who can check turn files during the game if necessary, and if someone is offered diplomatic overtures, they can regard it as fairly likely that other people are getting similar offers, and blow the whistle.

Having said that, having a handicap at the start is kind of neater, as there's no rules to check then, and the player can just get on with doing their best (my game idea of 'Dissolution of Empire', which I'd still like to run some day is like that ... the Empire has lots of rules, the players have pretty much the usual Stars! ones).

quote:

imho, banning is also not a good option. there are not many games offered anymore. Sad


Agree absolutely - it is evil to block someone from participating in something just because it is slightly inconvenient to arrange.

Oh, and I'm learning lots that will make setting up my _next_ game a lot smoother.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Mon, 09 January 2006 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand
If anyone is ready submit a race, that would be useful to get underway (or are you all waiting to know if the game definitely goes ahead before designing a race?) - I've had a comment from the person I'm using to check the races that he's only had one so far.

Assume (and hope!) that we get about 10 players in a normal medium for the moment - if we change the settings to deal with a different number of players, you can always resubmit, and remember the non-AccBBS start (which IMO makes a slightly wider variety of races viable).

It's a two step process, in that you've got to contact me, and I give you the email of the neutral person you can send the password too (and a curse Mad Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad on the person who invented spam so I can't just post his email directly - he's not a member of autohost).

Some of you might want to check your PM box.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Mon, 09 January 2006 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strannik is currently offline Strannik

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 18
Registered: July 2005
Madman wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 08:36


Not that difficult to enforce really, particularly if there's only one. Remember there is someone who can check turn files during the game if necessary, and if someone is offered diplomatic overtures, they can regard it as fairly likely that other people are getting similar offers, and blow the whistle.




sorry, i think i expressed myself incorrectly. Sad
let's consider following scenario:
i'm advanced player, surrounded by 2-4 weaker ones. i know there is another guy in the galaxy, who is also an expert, probably in the same situation. so basicly he is my only real threat, everybody else is just meat.

what i would do in the setting of no allies, no NAPs, no diplo - attack the weakest of my neighbours as soon as possible, hoping to get his space fast before my neighbours organize against me. then grow a little, or maybe just go straight after the next one. in the long run i have only 1 real opponent. and the winner will basicly be the one who takes out more "meat"/occupies more space. of course, assuming equal skill levels and no obvious mistakes made.

it's not bad overall. i mean, even if u lose to a more skilled one - u can still learn a lot out of it. Wink but the first "meat" might find it a little disappointing to have jihad CCs falling on his head year 25-30, as he is still researching bazooka FF. Shocked Very Happy

but i cannot think of real alternatives. Sad so let's try to start and see, what happens, and how fast we can make friends to withstand the attack. Wink

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Mon, 09 January 2006 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 789
Registered: October 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
You guys figure out what you want and I'll see if I can make time to come in and join if you have slots still open.

From my perspective, I played the handicap last game... rather than points in beginning, I took over a super-quick start WM who had wasted his first 20+ turns and was out factoried/mining by most of the rest. I did good attack style (part luck), I had good ship design/counterdisign, but it was diplomacy where I likely did my best work, that includes with enemies.

So I was thinking a no-diplomacy/trade/friend game is something I've never tried, and it will fit in better with "busy with real life" - less to do. As for my style, I can't say if it will be attack one guy or attack all, much depends on where I start and what neighbours look like.

It is possible I can get away with attacking everyone a little with focus on whoever fights me to reduce gang-ups.

As for cheating by using diplomacy, it is like pre-game alliances... you can't really prove you aren't but it would take another party to be a cheater as well.


[Updated on: Mon, 09 January 2006 23:08]

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Tue, 10 January 2006 00:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar
I don't think advanced players have quite the advantage you guys seem to be discussing. Perhaps against beginners, yes, but not against intermediates.

I think banning diplomacy for any advanced players is a fairly good handicap. Say you had 8 intermediates and 2 advanced players in such a situation. Of course the advanced players will see each other as the main threat, but that doesn't mean they'll have an easy time as several alliances will likely form amongst the intermediates. I doubt you'll find many advanced players that think they could take 2 intermediates on in an 1v2 duel.

Obviously a 2430 kill is too early and quick for an ally to really help much, so you could *also* apply a race design style limitation - for example you could limit them to 1/2500 pop efficiency.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Tue, 10 January 2006 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Orange

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA
A suggestion: allow your advance players but only with the AR PRT.

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Tue, 10 January 2006 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Orange

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA
What is the difference between an advance versus intermediate player?

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Wed, 11 January 2006 01:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shiver is currently offline shiver

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 153
Registered: December 2005
Location: Bielsko-Biala, Poland
If you accept a small piece of advise from a newbie...

The more constraints you put in effect, the less players you gonna attract... For example look at the fill up times in No Frills III (already running) and Andromeda Strained (discussed long before No Frills III and still gathering people).

Just a thought...

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Wed, 11 January 2006 03:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand

Orange wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 11:49

A suggestion: allow your advance players but only with the AR PRT.

NOT a good idea. As the recently re-posted AR guide says...AR races only grow in strength..starting off weaker and ending up unassailable. I'm sure advanced players would have the diplomatic/stars skill needed to survive the vulnerable period.

Besides...while I don't think AR is a very good choice for a newbie(very beginner) I'd hate to be the intermediate who chooses AR and gets pasted by his neighbours because they thought he was advanced and needed to be stomped ASAP

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Re: Medium Game for intermediates that are busy in real life Wed, 11 January 2006 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1192
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Orange wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 00:01

What is the difference between an advance versus intermediate player?

Advanced player will win 9 of 10 duels with an intermediate player. Wink
Seriously, it's hard to point on a single skill, it's more a combination of many things, that advanced players utilize and combine much more successfully than intermediates.
BR, Iztok

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