Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge?
| So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Tue, 17 February 2004 22:18  |
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Is there a clear definition somewhere?
As far as I know, this is when a player splits a fleet
in an attempt to evade pursuit.
In my current case, I have been accused of using a
'split fleet attack'...
IMHO this is quite different. I sent a stack of
sweepers to the front, then split some of them to
sweep enemy minefields. Others I sent to local planets
to hide and be used for sweeping the next turn.
I have been splitting sweepers for years, and no
one has ever suggested that I am doing something
wrong.
Thoughts?
RainDancer dancing too much?
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Wed, 18 February 2004 09:01  |
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i always forget if its the heaviest fleet or the fleet with a certain fleet number or something - so i've never really studied it - but it is certainly allowable in MY games to split up your fleets at will.... you'll know if you are committing split fleet dodge, i think  you have to do da math...
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I have been reading through old email discussions of this, and remember more as I read those and other posts...
My understanding, from testbeds that someone else made (and that I cannot seen to find at the moment...) is that the targeting is actually random.
So if I have two sweepers, and split them (so that they have higher odds of one of them making it through the minefield), and the enemy targets my original fleet with a counter sweeper, then (in a testbed run many times) my two sweepers have about an equal chance to get hit. So if my enemy sent TWO counter sweepers, then he has a good chance of killing both of my sweepers.
My definition of split fleet abuse:
Splitting many smaller fleets off a main fleet, so that for all practical purposes, the main fleet cannot be targeted.
i.e. I have a big battle fleet. As I am approaching an enemy planet I see that he has a bigger fleet, and that I would lose the battle. So I split off 20 chaff, and send them in random directions. My enemy now has a one in 21 chance of actually catching my battle fleet.
If I split my fleet into multiple fleets to retreat (and thus my enemy could catch and kill SOME of my fleet) or if I split my fleet to attack multiple planets, then this in not abuse.
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IMHO, NOT SPLIT FLEET DODGE... who are you dodging?
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If my enemy was using counter sweepers (which he is not at present) you could say that I was dodging them. But this is not the same, as none of my fleets are effectively untargetable. If my enemy had targeted my fleet with multiple counter sweepers (which is also a common tactic) then most of my sweepers would be dead now. Splitting and merging of sweeper fleets is more akin to guerrilla warfare, costing the enemy time and resources to hunt you down. The is not at all the same as split fleet abuse.
RainDancer
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Wed, 18 February 2004 11:33 |
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 mazda |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK | |
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| Raindancer wrote on Wed, 18 February 2004 16:00 |
he should still be able to target the biggest enemy fleet with his own big fleet.
Happier Dancer
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And that *is* the problem.
You can make him target your heaviest fleet, but move it so that he can't catch it, whilst your lighter fleet remains untargetted and can go where it pleases - usually past the ships that would normally have blown it up.
As Ashlyn says, if you are doing this then you know you are doing it (not withstanding the rare occasions where you might want to move your heavy ships away from the interceptors, like freighters just picking up lots of salvage, or keeping bombers just out of reach whilst you remove bases and/or minefields).
There is a lot of discussion in FreeStars! on how to remedy this, without much success.
*** added the word "success" ***
[Updated on: Wed, 18 February 2004 11:34] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Wed, 18 February 2004 12:12 |
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And that *is* the problem.
You can make him target your heaviest fleet, but move it so that he can't catch it, whilst your lighter fleet remains untargetted and can go where it pleases - usually past the ships that would normally have blown it up.
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Ah. So in my case... where I had 10 sweepers... split away 4 of them as individual fleets... and 2 fleets of 3 ships that went to two nearby planets to sit until the next turn... technically those fleets of 3 are heavier, so they would have been followed, leaving the lone sweepers to do their job unmolested. So it would have been better for me to split those sets of three, even if they were going to the same location. So then the one counter sweeper would have had to randomly pick one of the 10 sweepers, and might have picked one of the two near the planet whose minefield I was trying to sweep. Not that it would have made a difference.
Thank you. I think I understand not what the REAL problem is.
RainDancer
...peeling away the layers of the this problem to determine exactly what REAL Split Fleet Abuse is, and having about as much fun as peeling the layers of an onion...
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Wed, 18 February 2004 13:02 |
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| mazda |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK | |
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I guess that highlights another problem.
Certain behaviour, like splitting sweepers, will lead to these kind of situations.
Unless you are a very good bluffer then it is pretty certain you didn't intend to gain an advantage.
You simply wanted to separate your sweepers so you could continue sweeping next turn.
This is fine.
For a smaller number of ships - like sweepers - then the attacker could split their fleet into smaller chunks, which would then follow all parts of your split fleet, without losing the benefit of a large stacked shield.
However for large battle fleets, splitting is undesirable, which is where the real abuse lies.
I think it boils down to "if the sole intention of a split is to misdirect an opponents fleet" then that is abuse.
There is no real answer and most players, who are aware of it, would avoid doing manoeuvers that could be classed as abuse - some even putting themselves out to do so.
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Wed, 18 February 2004 13:49 |
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| vonKreedon |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA | |
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Of course this is moot if the game parameters allow using the split fleet dodge(SFD). My experience has been that allowing SFD and chaff is normal.
Not being able to split your trooper laden freighters and bombers from your attack fleet is a real problem. It would require that you always have your transport/bombers in a separate fleet from your warships, else you may find yourself in a position of either risking the entire fleet or withdrawing the entire fleet.
[Updated on: Wed, 18 February 2004 13:51] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Wed, 18 February 2004 14:39 |
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David of the Quacks, in the game mentioned by Raindancer of the Animals. I asked for clarification of a 'grey area' rather than actually accusing Animals of cheating, and hints of what is meant were given in our forum when the game was starting up.
"Split fleet attack" in our game is not allowed but "split fleet retreat" is.
In the mentioned case, some of Animals ships went to a colony that I now control and the previous turn had transports and defenders that would have been defeated had they stayed.
I brought up the question because in the future battleships will likely be involved in similar and the host has already given hints of what he means by 'split fleet attack'.
I wish to have the same set of rules to go with as everyone else... if sending in a bunch of ships in one big fleet and then spliting them to attack opponents small colonies (perhaps using equal sized fleets) is allowed I want to take advantage of that (as I was constrained before).
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Thu, 19 February 2004 11:45 |
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| LEit wrote on Wed, 18 February 2004 12:45 |
If some one has a bunch of sweepers next to a field you want to protect, just sending in one sweeper-killer will not work. You have to at least send in enough to kill them all if they happen to split. Unfortunatly whenever I try that, Stars! thinks I want to send them all chasing after the main fleet...
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Pretty well what happenned to me. I sent 7 fleets after a single fleet that split 7 ways. Most of his fleets didn't get chased and would have been destroyed if they were chased. Combine that with one of his fleets going after my weak colony that had poorly defended transports the turn before and we have a grey area, especially if battleships do similar later.
His 'minesweepers' are a counter design to mine so he wins if he hits my small colonies with them and I leave stuff there (and don't defend with battleships or missile ships). So they can actually do damage to a small colony if poorly defended and on the border we both have lots of those. A little better defended doesn't do much good against our battleships that are facing off.
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Thu, 19 February 2004 12:03 |
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I was planning to post something with some more game specifics in the private forum... but I will respond here, and also post in the private forum.
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"Split fleet attack" in our game is not allowed but "split fleet retreat" is.
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Technically not correct:
| Quote: from the host |
FINAL Ruling on Split Fleet Rule:
"Split fleet 'abuse' is banned. Split your fleets whenever and wherever you like, just so long as the split fleet bug does not mess up the defenders targeting."
If your fleet ends up flying the wrong way chasing the wrong fleet *because of split fleet bug*, let me know and I will roll back & alter the turn IF I think it is necessary.
Do not to let your orders get the game into a position where I have to make a ruling / roll back a turn.
My rulings will be final and I reserve the right to make incorrect/stupid decisions.
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The problem of course, is trying to determine exactly what is abuse and what is not. What are legal moves? What moves are considered abuse? That was why I started this topic, not because I was upset, but because I wanted answers. If I win a battle, I want it to be because of something I did RIGHT, not because I took advantage of a game problem which my opponent could not prevent.
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In the mentioned case, some of Animals ships went to a colony that I now control and the previous turn had transports and defenders that would have been defeated had they stayed.
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Yes, I did send some sweepers there. With Chicken battle orders (common for sweepers) and so would not have killed anything there. And your one defender was targeting that fleet, which was the heaviest. So if your ship had a high enough warp speed, it would have caught and killed my ships. So what point are you trying to make with this? You DID successfully target my fleet.
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I brought up the question because in the future battleships will likely be involved in similar and the host has already given hints of what he means by 'split fleet attack'.
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But the RULE he posted is not that same as the hints he also posted. This is why I have been trying so hard to understand exactly what causes the targeting problem. The host did NOT make a rule that we could not split up attack fleets, just that we could not do it in such a way that it messed up the targeting.
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I wish to have the same set of rules to go with as everyone else... if sending in a bunch of ships in one big fleet and then spliting them to attack opponents small colonies (perhaps using equal sized fleets) is allowed I want to take advantage of that (as I was constrained before).
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For myself, I do not see any problems with splitting fleets that are all attacking. But we need to get a ruling from our host on this, which is why I will also post in the private forum. We need to understand exactly what actions will cause problems, so we can avoid those things.
If anyone is interested, I created a small testbed which shows how some of the fleet splitting stuff works.
RainDancer/Animals in CLFBIAB game
...
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Thu, 19 February 2004 18:54 |
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As I stated before, my concern wasn't with this case but future cases following the same pattern. We are soon going to be playing with battleships, and may try harder to intercept (rather than my warp 3 which was just trying to get your minesweepers and missed them all) so things will actually matter.
I intended to send 7, if 6 only got sent I may have done something wrong with my orders. You had a total of 10 in your stack, I only had 7 teams free to chase.
I have been constrained from using tactics of splitting fleets because of the current vagueness on the subject. I wish the matter clarified so I know as well what I am allowed to do when attacking you or others.
David
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Tue, 24 February 2004 02:04 |
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| LEit wrote on Wed, 18 February 2004 12:45 |
If some one has a bunch of sweepers next to a field you want to protect, just sending in one sweeper-killer will not work. You have to at least send in enough to kill them all if they happen to split. Unfortunatly whenever I try that, Stars! thinks I want to send them all chasing after the main fleet...
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I sent 12 missile metamorphs split into individual fleets after 2 fleets of enemy frigate minesweeepers sitting on a nearby planet. I could see them with Penn Scans. All my ships went at warp 3, only fast enough to hit ones that would arrive near them (so enemy battleships couldn't protect).
My battle orders are default (target armed, then any; maximize damage ration; target enemies). My ships all end up targetting the big fleets that didn't move and miss targetting any that split off.
I hear that the latest v2.6 patch was suppose to have interceptors split off and chase pursuers. Raindancer/Animals ran a testbed to that effect, I haven't had time to look yet.
Is it possible that Autohost runs a 2.7 based version that works different? Or is there something else involved to explain how Leit and I seem to see different behavour than is SUPPOSE to happen?
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Tue, 24 February 2004 05:37 |
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AFAIK the latest patch is 2.6jrc4, which is used on autohost. The new changes from 2.6jrc3 are server-side only and DO include changes to the split-fleet pursuit thingamy.
theoriectially the only difference between 2.6XXXX and 2.7XXXX are the splash screen and 2.7XXXX having sounds(which are known to cause problems on some OSs/setups)
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Tue, 16 March 2004 15:39 |
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One note on the changes made in the JRC3 patch -
The targeting modification ONLY works if you have MORE than ONE fleet attacking a running fleet that gets split.
If I have 3 fleets of ships (or I split my fleet into 3 fleets the same turn the fleeing ships split), AND, All ships are targeted on teh fleeing fleet of ships, the targeting algorithm will be modified dynamically sending each of my 3 fleets after a different target. Part of this is done by chasing down the target with the largest mass.
If I have one fleet of ships set to attack a fleet that gets split the same turn, my ships do not get split to try to chase down the now seperate fleets (and herein lies the entire heart of the original discussion). My fleet will be assigned to attack only one fleet of the now multiple fleets.
This issue has always been a little contentious and so far the best solution for any game has just been to allow splitting fleets in any way one wishes provided the drop down display for a specific location is not overloaded and the battle board is not overloaded.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Tue, 16 March 2004 15:48]
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Wed, 17 March 2004 06:55 |
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Okie, as the host, these were the final statements that I wrote to anybody about this topic. Some of the earlier examples would've been flawed, since you guys kept forcing me to refine and update the definition to remove potential abuse of the ruling. I'm very happy with my final decision.
Ruling:
"If you split, and the enemy ends up chasing the wrong fleet, and one or more of your ships ends up in a better attacking position as a result, then this is violation. Fleets at your own stars are excluded."
Comments:
"Very few tactics are affected by this, as you just need to think a year ahead and split the ships off a year early (so they stay with the fleet.)"
"If you want to sneak in a fleet using overcloakers, then split off part of it you can still do this! - Simply make sure the split fleets don't diverge from the course of the 'mother fleet' until the turn following the split. That would be absolutely fine."
IMHO, the only real flaw with this ruling is that it cripples players using CE as they would have to slow to warp 6 when performing the 'split and stay on course' manouver.
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| Re: So what exactly is Split Fleet Dodge? |
Thu, 18 March 2004 22:19 |
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| Kang wrote on Fri, 19 March 2004 01:10 |
I avoid games that try to place limitations on a players ability to "manipulate the odds in his favor".
The only real Abuse of split fleet is to avoid combat where you will have too many fleets at a given battle point and therefore the largest fleet will not be in the battle, or a situation where you have previously split into greter than 100 fleets so that fleets cannot be targetted.`
In other words these "problems" will not arise if you allow the use of game features and nuances to enhace your options, and make the game a little more complex. After all it's the complexities we like right?
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Based on the way the game works, I agree.
A few years ago the issue was raised (I think by me at patch JRC2) because I noted that when I had a battle fleet that was about to catch a running fleet, that fleet split. My battle fleet chased one chaff ship - the one with the original fleet ID. I pointed out that any competent Admiral had his scans running and would see the target splitting into running separate fleets. He would then issue orders to split his battle group accordingly to chase selected targets. Since this would have to happen in 'mid-turn', it was providing an unfair advantage to the running fleet.
Now, with the modification made in JRC3, an attacking fleet at has the option of splitting off also with the separate fleets chasing down separate pieces of the fleeing battle group.
Jeff did a great job with providing this option since it does even things out somewhat and provide some balance. This is why I do not see any major problem with the split fleet dodge anymore and I allow it in my games. I DO however, require that players avoid overloading display capabilities of the user interface when splitting their fleets. IMO, it is an abuse to overload the display drop down list so that higher numbered fleets may not be seen or selected. This exploits a limitation of the user interface negating the spirit of the game.
Ptolemy
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The problem is when you manipulate it so the enemy will be forced to target worthless ships instead of useful ones. If he follows the wrong fleet out of gullibility it's an entirely different matter. 
