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New game idea... Sun, 15 December 2002 15:03 Go to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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weapon restrictions[ 16 votes ]
1. No missiles, no torps. 6 / 38%
2. No missiles 4 / 25%
3. No interest at all. 6 / 38%

Got an idea. I wanna see if people would be interested in taking part in such a game...

All races *HAVE* to take regen sheilds. No missiles, no torps excluding the AMT from the mystery trader. No armour is to be built on ships (starbases are ok).

No cheats - at all - not even chaff (not much point).

This should eliminate the PRS loop and possibly the who has the bigger stack of nubs.

This would also introduce the following...

1. sappers become VERY handy in a battle as primary protection is sheilding - but sappers can't finish the job.

2. the choice of range 2 or range 3 beamers becomes more critical than ever. I.e. a lighter opponent with range 3 will tear you limb from limb.

3. Mass of battleships - range 0 weapons and range advantage becomes important with weight advantages. Since all ships will have only minor weight difference this comes into play.

4. Kill starbase loses a fair quantity of effectiveness. Since starbases get a +1 range bonus and with a starbase loaded with sappers they become alot harder to take down. I mean 10% regeneration on say an Ultra station maxed out with elephants is quite an extensive quantity of sheilding.

5. SD and IT's main advantages get reduced, but SD's movement reducing component becomes handy. WM becomes a bigger threat than ever as does IS with croby sharmour (croby sharmour is allowed as it is a sheild component). AR gets increased survive-ability. HE also gets better due to the Flux capacitor.

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Re: New game idea... Sun, 15 December 2002 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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Star Bases would almost always shoot first... I would like to play AR in a game like this. Also, you do realize the RPS loops are considered a good thing, (now who's got the biggest range 3 move 2.5 beam weapons fleet) It would make range 0 weapons somewhat viable... if they were really fast. It would make it extensively harder to attack planets since star bases using armor and full shields become powerful again. MY only question is, what beats a fast range 3 ship? (other than star bases OC)

PS: If starbases could use missiles, people would really think twice about attacking planets.


[Updated on: Sun, 15 December 2002 15:15]




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Re: New game idea... Sun, 15 December 2002 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Well it's an idea but should anymore than 4 people show interest then we can get a game running.

I think putting armour onto a starbase would be a bad idea though. Max armour per unit would be the super lat - 750dp with regen sheilds. Complete phase would be 700 and regenerates. So you'd lose out by using armour really. But then armour gives protection against sappers. Balance it out :)

As for PRS loop - one would still technically exist...

It'd be between weapons, sheilding and computers. The game would boil down to who fires first, who has the most protection and who can do the most damage - you can't have all 3.

A) For example a BB filled with 8 nexi would fire first.
B) A BB filled with capacitors would do the most damage.
C) A BB with deflectors would have best ability to survive.

i.e. these 3 fleets of 10 bb's come together. Each armed with AMPs, same sheilds engine speed etc....

The A BB's would do full damage to the B's BB, but the capacitor does more damage, so it's a question of can A destroy B in the first volley? If not then chances are B can wipe out A.

The B's vs C's would tie and it'd be a fire first situation - in other words highest initiative weapons.

C vs A would be same as A vs B.

So in other words if you want to fire first you better make sure it counts because B's will wipe you out most likely. C's offer best all round ability but if A's can wipe them out in one shot it's all over.

Yeah it does become a case of biggest stack wins but thats ALWAYS true. Armageddon BB's can wipe out beamer BB's if no chaff is present. But field 20 or 30 times more beamers BB's and it's a no-brainer.

I think the cruiser vs BB era would be most interesting. Faster lighter cruisers vs bigger bulkier BB's. BB's get first shot but cruisers out pace allowing for range 0 weapons and maybe out-ranging if BB's are only using range 2.

As for starbases with missiles/torps - it might be a good idea since it is only a single token and it could be argued that a starbase is big enough to house numbers of missiles.

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Re: New game idea... Tue, 17 December 2002 01:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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Seems to me that counterdesign would actually determine the game if the economics didn't first. Initiative rarely matters much in beamer wars and a very easy counterdesign to a beam ship with comps is to place capacitors in the slot instead. Doing more damage (or taking less ala beam deflectors) counts for more than first shot. Especially post cruiser era when you are talking about 30% or more differentials. I'll give you first shot if my token can do 30% more damage Smile




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Re: New game idea... Tue, 17 December 2002 02:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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I'm currently playing in two (and have finished a third) games where we're using a "No Cap Ship Missle" rule. So no jihads,jugs,arms or doomsday missles just torps from alpha to omega. This makes chaff pretty much usless and raises the value of RS. It also changes some of the design wars nicely.


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Re: New game idea... Tue, 17 December 2002 03:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Thats fine by me Apelord - so long as I got the weapons (couple of sappers and some hefty beams) to tear you apart in the one shot

Very Happy

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Re: New game idea... Tue, 17 December 2002 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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Ships still target chaffe...


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for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: New game idea... Tue, 17 December 2002 22:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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freakyboy wrote on Tue, 17 December 2002 01:56

Thats fine by me Apelord - so long as I got the weapons (couple of sappers and some hefty beams) to tear you apart in the one shot

Very Happy


That means you need significant numerical superiority, especially with the relatively low power of beams. If you actually ever had a fleet that outnumbered me that badly, you'd find it very hard to actually force me into a battle Very Happy. If your enemy can win a major fleet engagement, don't fight it. Hit many places at once with smaller forces, then ambush him later. Every try four-five slots of deflectors on nubian w/ max tech sheilds and RS? Killing one can be a lot more difficult than you might thnk...



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the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: New game idea... Wed, 18 December 2002 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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OK,, but planets can't run away (MWUHAHA).......(or words to that effect) Mad2


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Re: New game idea... Wed, 18 December 2002 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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That's what large freighters are for Smile Pick up and move. Maybe even pop drop some nearby enemy colonies. If they are going to die anyway at least take something with you.


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for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: New game idea... Wed, 18 December 2002 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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Oh.......Wait..........you really really like AR don't you?

Doh! (polish salute)

Uh.......Can I rephrase that?............No, Huh (trudges slowly and sadly back to testbed land).





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Re: New game idea... Wed, 18 December 2002 03:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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In any case the idea of removing projective weaponry was to alter the way the game works and liven things a little.

Chaff is also irrelavant as I stated no chaff in the game design Very Happy

If both apelord and myself had cruisers that in a one on one battle would take 2 shots to kill each other regardless of the increase in damage by capacitors then the one with the highest initiative would win. That is what I meant by the 3 options of deflectors vs capacitors vs computers.

And if you built nubs with 5 slots deflectors, then I could build one with 4 slots of deflectors and a slot of nexi. Might given me enough edge to win?

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Re: New game idea... Wed, 18 December 2002 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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Alll depending upon the game parameters it sounds like phun Smile

If you don't mind the skill level of the game being lowered considerably by my being in it,I'll try.

A question though. Why no armor and why force RS? Changing that many variables at one time seems like it would make it hard to see clearly what "no torps/missles" does to a game of Stars!.
It also seems to me that it would almost force everyone to become a WM variant.


[Updated on: Wed, 18 December 2002 13:59]




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Re: New game idea... Wed, 18 December 2002 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Yea The idea of no torps and no missiles has been done time and time again. Now chuck in no armour and only RS and you get a whole new ballgame.

Base armour means almost as much as sheilding. Rather than rushes to superlat and nubs the rush becomes to elephants and the big sappers. It removes the importance of some tech and increases the importance of others. Banning armour on ships was to eliminate the construction tech rush. It makes mines more deadly and frigates a good design. RS I made compulsory because once you ban armour on ships NOT taking RS is just silly.

I figured this would be a twist that has either not been tried or at least hasn't been tried to death.

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Re: New game idea... Thu, 19 December 2002 00:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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freakyboy wrote on Wed, 18 December 2002 01:21

If both apelord and myself had cruisers that in a one on one battle would take 2 shots to kill each other regardless of the increase in damage by capacitors then the one with the highest initiative would win. That is what I meant by the 3 options of deflectors vs capacitors vs computers.

And if you built nubs with 5 slots deflectors, then I could build one with 4 slots of deflectors and a slot of nexi. Might given me enough edge to win?



Your RPS loop of defelctors/cap/comps only applies to hulls capable of mounting deflectors. It's a mechanical component and while you can load a cruiser up, you can't load up a BB.

Test 5 slots deflectors against 4 slots + nexi. I actually used 5 slots deflectors as a counterdesign to the 4 slots + nexi variant.

PS: Your game is tailor made for WM's. Dreads are extremely powerful under any circumstances, very hard to design wrong (just fill up all the slots as indicated and the ship does pretty good), and without missiles other races will find those dreads very very tough to take out. Dreadnought hull is the only hull that remains viable into the Nubian era.



"The object of war is not to die
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the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: New game idea... Thu, 19 December 2002 07:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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I might add that Battle Cruisers can take on laser BBs pound for pound, but remain cheaper. Stars! Drawing Board has a very good article on warmongering... Also, if a Total Terraforming race grabbed the Mystery Trader Torpedo, it has range 6. I'd love to be in that game.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 December 2002 07:02]




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Re: New game idea... Thu, 19 December 2002 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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The warmonger arguement...

Yeah they got the ships to rip everyone else apart...

but they got no mines still. And since ships can't have armour added to them it makes mines more deadly - but since no projectile weaponry mines are easier to clear.

I guess for WM a special rule will have to be applied.

Something like a WM race CANNOT have regen sheilds or has to take cheap engines or something to similar effect.

I'd rather not ban a PRT.

[Edit: Changed the "ZZZ" into "The".]


[Updated on: Thu, 19 June 2003 15:24] by Moderator


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Re: New game idea... Fri, 20 December 2002 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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shouldn't ban warmongers. Just realize that they will have added advantages in this type of setup. Not game breaker type advantages TT-CA's have in max tech games, but some significant ones nonetheless. It'll actually be interesting to have more than the standard usual suspects with strong advantages in the late game.


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the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: New game idea... Sat, 21 December 2002 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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This a sign of interest from apelord?

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Re: New game idea... Sun, 22 December 2002 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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thes sounds like a real interesting game, one that I wish I could participate in. As you know, MDI just begun and I'm already subscribed to that one. I don't want to get over-extended (and I find that probable in the end game if I'm in more than one) so I'll just have to wait until MDI is done before starting anymore. It's sad that life is so busy I can't handle more than one, isn't it? Sad

However, if I was playing I'd expect the majority of players to choose the WM PRT. I'm not sure whether I'd join the WM pack, or take my pick of the litter for an ally by playing an IS or IT. Certainly sounds fun. Smile



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Re: New game idea... Sun, 22 December 2002 18:13 Go to previous message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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If enough show interest (was looking for about 8 or so) then I'll probably end up going for either SD or IS.

SD for mines or IS for the invasion force.

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