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icon5.gif  How do you like your Germanium? Fri, 10 February 2017 10:48 Go to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 58
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

With all the race design I've been fidgeting with I wanted to discuss what I have found and what may or may not be considered current with regards to race design.

From what I have read I have come to the following conclusions for each PRT:

ECONOMIC PRTs
CA - Often Banned or with heavy handicaps, FREE Terraforming!
IS - A lot of defensive tech and "free" growth in transit. Can neutralize negative growth and overpop penalties.
IT - Can transport cargo through Stargates! May take a while to get to a planet, but an orbital gate provides instant transfer of eco fluidly.
JoAT - Sometimes handicapped, found to be the core PRT for the HG monster and among the most well-rounded and potent PRTs!

WAR PRTs
PP - Rarely see this race mentioned, though I can imagine that such a race can be very devastating throughout the game.
SD - Personally I loved this as an economy race, as it the cheapest of the PRTs with some good defense. But the utility of mobile minefields, moving 2 warp speeds faster in mine fields, and detonated fields can make this a very aggressive PRT.
SS - Among the most expensive, but gains "free" resources in tech through the game. Can rob people of their transports or even from planets with the right tech.
WM - Very aggressive starting/mid game tech and a very potent movement advantage makes this a deadly PRT with or without an allied race provided minelayers.

SPECIAL PRTs
AR - Basically 3 different styles of play, and only one of them I've ever seen or read as effective. Extremely vulnerable, and a bit outside the scope of this.
HE - Would like to cover this but they are so unique with their half pop/double growth that it falls outside the scope (for the moment) of what I hope to discuss here.

Economies I have found fall into the following types:

Hyper Growth/HG (AKA "Monsters" if they can break the 25k resources by 2450 year mark):
Only Basic Remote Mining/OBRM LRT
Wide Hab (1 in 4-6) with 18-19% Growth Rate
1/1000-1200 Colonists
(11-13)/(9-8 Cost)/(14-16 Operated), 3g Checked if you can afford it
Cheap Weapons/Rest Expensive Tech (start @ 3 typically checked)

Hyper Producer/HP:
Narrow Hab (1 in 6-10) with 15-17% Growth Rate
1/2500 Colonists
15/(9-8 Cost)/(20-25 Operated), 3g Checked
Cheap Weapons/Rest Expensive Tech (start @ 3 typically checked)
Up to 50 Leftover points invested in Min Concentration

Factoryless/-f:
Only Basic Remote Mining/OBRM LRT
Wide Hab (1 in 4-6) with 18-19% Growth Rate
1/1000 Colonists
5/25/5, 3g NOT Checked (Worse possible settings!)
Weapons & Con Cheap, and some combination of normal/expensive tech with start @ 3 rarely checked.

Quickstart/QS:
I've seen a number of such builds using Cheap Engines/CE for early horde cost.
Narrow Hab (1 in 8-12) with 18-19% Growth Rate
1/1000-1200 Colonists
(11-13)/(8-7 Cost)/(14-16 Operated), 3g Checked if you can afford it
Weapons & Con Cheap, and some combination of normal/expensive tech with start @ 3 checked for early starting tech.

One World Wonder/OWW:
In some cases Only Basic Remote Mining/OBRM LRT (for increased hab on the one planet)
I've seen a number of such builds using Cheap Engines/CE for early horde cost.
Worst possible hab range, 15-19% Growth Rate (depending on what you can afford)
1/1000-1200 Colonists
(14-15 Resources)/(8-7 Cost)/(14-16 Operated), 3g Checked if you can afford it
Weapons & Con Cheap, and only what tech left over you can afford to get early advantage.

NOTE: For all designs, I've seen 10 Minerals/(3 or 4 cost in rare cases when playing -f)/(13-16 Operated) Mines always being used. Only odd ball options I've seen go up to 12 for some odd-ball Packet Physics races. From what I can tell this is due to the extremely high costs going from 10 to anything else being too expensive to justify.

Are the above settings typically what others have played with? Do you feel that I'm off point on some of the mentioned Economy Styles? Discuss!
...




--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Fri, 10 February 2017 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Lt. Commander

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Quote:
PP - Rarely see this race mentioned, though I can imagine that such a race can be very devastating throughout the game.


PP
A mineral packet at warp 13 and a technical reach of 253-ly (84-ly at start, 169-ly the following year) in which everything can be laid to waste without much you can do to protect against it... is a frightening thing.

BUT and as a matter of fact there are several big BUTs:
* ultra driver 13 comes at tech level 24!
* PP is expensive and that's an understatement... it is rather as expensive as not being competitive. An example: for my latest race design as a SD or as a PP (all other things except PRT the same) there are 183pts difference in the race wizard. 183 pts is a really huge difference.
* throwing minerals is very expensive, at least it should be free and without an extra fee

Thus the general opinion is that the PRT Packet Physics (PP) is rather a broken PRT and not competitive.

SD
The difference in pts needed in the race wizard does also show why SD on the other hand is usually used as a very heavy HP design. The PRT is cheap and thus allows for exceptional good economic settings while at the same time with all those blasting mines having a superb deterrence mostly allowing to grow in peace in the long early weak HP-growing-phase until developed, strong and ready to strike.

Quote:
ECONOMIC PRTs
CA - IS - IT - JoAT

WAR PRTs
PP - SD - SS - WM


Yeah, the PRTs used to be sorted that way but nowadays with so many more tried and tested approaches and IMHO it rather depends on playing style and what you are doing with the PRTs and how.

CA
If you are the diplo-minded player, CA is, of course, your thing because everybody loves you and wants those terraformers. Another reason, apart from the economic power, that HP-players like to use CA because you have a good chance of peace until you are ready to strike.

IT - JoaT
IT can be played every way: aggressively, defensively, HP, HG...
Together with JoaT, for which the same is true, I wouldn't call them economic or warfare PRTs but rather the most versatile PRTs.
And while PP can be considered broken due to the PRT too expensive, JoaT is on the other range and can be called broken because it is too cheap (when counting in the pts gained from taking NAS).

S-S
Super-Stealth applies to the sneaky minded players and normally the PRT should force you to play aggressively: after all your planets aren't stealthed but your fleets but then again the PRT is rather expensive, the tech boni work only well with good research values and this often enough leading to rather weak economic settings resulting in a too weak design for war. Thus very often the super-stealth player finds himself in the role as a support ally.

HE
Available race designs for the HE show probably the best my point about how difficult it is to declare a PRT to be economic or warlike. In the olden times, there was a fearful 3-immune-hyper-production design which was deemed so strong that it was usually banned (like the CA nowadays). Then the HG-designs were invented and developed and nobody bothered anylonger to ban the 3i-HE nor bothered to play them because they proved to be easy and early prey for those HG-designs.
After years of HE-absence in most games, some time ago ccmaster developed an HE design which is the exact opposite of the old 3i-design, it is very very fast and tends to crush over its neighbours like a tsunami. Glory to the inventive minds of the Stars-players!
Shame that the result is to ban it now in so many games instead of seeing it as a challenge. But I might be biased as an enthusiastic IT-HG-player. If there is a nightmare opponent for a QS-HE, then it is very probably the HG-IT. Or, well, let's say it this way, at least I always had the feeling of having a good fighting-chance when encountering this HE-monster instead of feeling the sheer terror of being crushed by the tsunami.

WM
Probabyl the most misunderstood PRT and as usual due to the players who liked to play it often enough in the past. There is a superb art
...



[Updated on: Fri, 10 February 2017 15:16]

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Tue, 14 February 2017 02:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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Quote:
Are the above settings typically what others have played with? Do you feel that I'm off point on some of the mentioned Economy Styles? Discuss!

I'll take this point-by-point; this'll be a horrible spaghetti post but I don't really see an alternative.

Entropicurity wrote on Sat, 11 February 2017 02:48
With all the race design I've been fidgeting with I wanted to discuss what I have found and what may or may not be considered current with regards to race design.

From what I have read I have come to the following conclusions for each PRT:

ECONOMIC PRTs
CA - Often Banned or with heavy handicaps, FREE Terraforming!

It's not just the free terra. They get a very good tech base at the start (1/1/1/2/0/6), giving them a lot of the benefits of start@3 (Mizer at the start, reduced cost of researching Privateers) without actually having to spend the points and giving 7-point terra in all fields from 2400 if you take Total Terraforming. They can see other races' habitability settings. They can deterraform others' planets with Orbital Adjusters, deactivating planetary defences and rendering the planet useless for many years.

The terra is the main thing, certainly (and even there there's also the ~10% chance per year per world per variable to permanently improve by 1 click - that adds up), but they get a bunch of nasty bells and whistles on top of that.

Quote:
IS - A lot of defensive tech and "free" growth in transit. Can neutralize negative growth and overpop penalties.

Yup. The econ boost is key, but they also get quite a few nifty toys (especially the Croby Sharmor and Tachyon Detector). Fleet sizes are going to be a bit smaller, though, because of the cost penalty on weapons.

Quote:
IT - Can transport cargo through Stargates! May take a while to get to a planet, but an orbital gate provides instant transfer of eco fluidly.

That, and the infinity gates. IT can gate Battleships without loss; no-one else can do that.

Quote:
JoAT - Sometimes handicapped, found to be the core PRT for the HG monster and among the most well-rounded and potent PRTs!

Eh. I wouldn't call them "the core PRT for HG". Their only actual econ boost is the +20% capacity on worlds; the rest is cashing in on NAS points and the easy start. They are common among HP races, for obvious reasons.

Quote:
WAR PRTs
PP - Rarely see this race mentioned, though I can imagine that such a race can be very devastating throughout the game.

The reason it's rarely mentioned is that outside of one trick (the one-world/two-world wonder PP that nukes other players' homeworlds before they can spread) it's just not a good race. The PRT is very expensive and all of its perks are tied to mineral packets, which aren't all that great even with them (kinda too expensive for terraforming except maybe for boranium, attacking with them against well-defended planets is hard, and they can't transport pop which is the main thing requiring transportation).

Quote:
SD - Personally I loved this as an economy race, as it the cheapest of the PRTs with some good defense. But the utility of mobile minefields, moving 2 warp speeds faster in mine fields, and detonated fields can make this a very aggressive PRT.

I will say that they're somewhat undercut as the game goes on by collision sweeping. But with the speed they can re-lay that gets expensive fast.

Quote:
SS - Among the most expensive, but gains "free" resources in tech through the game. Can rob people of their transports or even from planets with the right tech.

The Pick Pocket sees very little use, for a relatively basic reason - if you can catch an enemy freighter, you can blow it up and then steal the minerals from the wreckage anyway (while depriving your opponent of the ship and any colonists on board). The Robber Baron is different because orbiting a planet is not sufficient to take minerals from it (it has to either be uninhabited with a remote-miner or inhabited by your own colonists). In practice you will find that upon realising an SS is close to attaining Robber Barons,
...

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Tue, 14 February 2017 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 58
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

Thanks everyone for the replies! I'm hoping to edit the above post as I polish this out, but I have plenty to devour/digest. Just got back from a dental surgery and having to play catchup on all my posts/emails!


--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Wed, 15 February 2017 01:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrvan is currently offline mrvan

 
Warrant Officer

Messages: 134
Registered: May 2014
Quote:

Quote:
SPECIAL PRTs
AR - Basically 3 different styles of play, and only one of them I've ever seen or read as effective. Extremely vulnerable, and a bit outside the scope of this.

Not sure what the three styles of play are. There's normal, there's the half-baked tri-immune, what else?

The thing about AR is that they're factoryless (and thus punch above their total resources) and that there's very little they have that cannot be moved (the mineral fountain is basically it). They aren't top-tier, though, unless it's a multi-winner game.


I think for AR the main decisions are # immunes (1 is very good, 0 or 2 are questionable, 3 is probably unplayable in any real setting) and pop efficiency (2500 gives 600 RW points for sqrt(2.5) reduction, allowing you to buy e.g. good hab, growth, TT, and normal/cheap bio) but it does make them quite sluggish and reduces planet resources from a respectable 2800 down to 1750.


[Updated on: Wed, 15 February 2017 01:16]

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Wed, 15 February 2017 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Entropicurity is currently offline Entropicurity

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

Messages: 58
Registered: November 2007
Location: Northern Indiana, USA

mrvan wrote on Wed, 15 February 2017 01:15
I think for AR the main decisions are # immunes...and pop efficiency...


This is exactly the idea behind the AR: They tend to be very limited with regards to diverse builds. The link in particular that I've had to work with can be found here: Viable AR designs: what are the options?

Basically the 1 Immune with alternating Co-Efficient seems to be the only real competitive builds, and seem to always hover around 15% GR given that it is somewhat cushioned by Planet Value and Starbase Size.

With HE, I've seen back in the day when the tri-immune monster was a big deal, then CA took claim, then the rather monstrous QS HE took on the focus again. PP simply tends to be a hit or miss, though mostly miss given the rather intense cost of the PRT.

I've seen a large number of handicap options of which the most commonly refferenced set I've seen are listed below:

AR: 50 | SS & PP: 100 | WM & HE: 125 | SD: 137 | IT & IS: 150 | JOAT: 175 | CA: 200

Of course experience handicaps I've seen mentioned as well, though would others dispute the validity of this in some way as an alternative to out-right bans?



--
"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese Proverb

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Wed, 15 February 2017 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Lt. Commander

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Entropicurity wrote on Wed, 15 February 2017 15:25
mrvan wrote on Wed, 15 February 2017 01:15
I think for AR the main decisions are # immunes...and pop efficiency...


This is exactly the idea behind the AR: They tend to be very limited with regards to diverse builds. The link in particular that I've had to work with can be found here: Viable AR designs: what are the options?


The "Monster" Pantheon by Barry Kearns (rec.games.computer.stars), there you can find a once lively discussion where also the bi-immune AR is discussed. Once I played a bi-immune designed after the advice given there in an all-AR game and it was very powerful. Finally I made it only to rank 2 with that design but that was most likely due to my impatience with too much micro-management... which is, indeed, the downside of the bi-immune, too many planets to manage. Other than that it is fast (for an AR), powerful and you can (and need) to play it very aggressively: getting/conquering lots of planets is a must as much as possible with such a design.

Quote:
I've seen a large number of handicap options of which the most commonly refferenced set I've seen are listed below:

AR: 50 | SS & PP: 100 | WM & HE: 125 | SD: 137 | IT & IS: 150 | JOAT: 175 | CA: 200

Of course experience handicaps I've seen mentioned as well, though would others dispute the validity of this in some way as an alternative to out-right bans?


Not sure what you are refering to with the above penalty list?
It doesn't really make sense to give penalties to ALL PRTs and nobody would give AR or PP a penalty in a normal game. In general you can't talk about penalties in general *grin
It depends too much on game parameters. Nowadays as a standard only CA and JoaT get penalties:
CA 100-200pts
JoaT 100-150pts or not taking NAS

When I played in a game with only experienced players with no penalties at all, most players, by te way,chose to play JoaT (not CA) in a small universe which I'd agree on that JoaT is the strongest PRT in a small universe: rather cheap PRT, very fast development due to excellent starting tech, penetrating scanners right from the start and a 20% bigger planet pop and economy base (which is actually even a 22% bonus in comparison to other PRTs because all players take OBRM as well in a small universe = 1.2 JoaT x 1.1 OBRM = 32%).

Games where you mix beginners and intermediate players follow a different logic. As an example in the games I hosted I usually even forbid SD for the more experienced because I didn't want to bring beginners into the situation to face SD-minefields in their first games: those are ALWAYS a micro-management hell and for beginners a huge obastacle. But in a normal game nobody (at least at the moment) would think of giving SD any penalties.

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Wed, 15 February 2017 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Entropicurity wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 01:25
With HE, I've seen back in the day when the tri-immune monster was a big deal, then CA took claim, then the rather monstrous QS HE took on the focus again.

Eh. Tri-immunes are still significant (though not CA-level); they can reach 50k by 2450. And the QS/-f HE is fairly manageable if AccBBS is on; it's when it's left off that it becomes so scary.

Altruist wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 05:44
When I played in a game with only experienced players with no penalties at all, most players, by te way,chose to play JoaT (not CA) in a small universe which I'd agree on that JoaT is the strongest PRT in a small universe: rather cheap PRT, very fast development due to excellent starting tech, penetrating scanners right from the start and a 20% bigger planet pop and economy base (which is actually even a 22% bonus in comparison to other PRTs because all players take OBRM as well in a small universe = 1.2 JoaT x 1.1 OBRM = 32%).

That isn't 22%. It's 20% more than other OBRM races.

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Thu, 16 February 2017 06:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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Altruist wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 05:44
When I played in a game with only experienced players with no penalties at all, most players, by te way,chose to play JoaT (not CA) in a small universe which I'd agree on that JoaT is the strongest PRT in a small universe: rather cheap PRT, very fast development due to excellent starting tech, penetrating scanners right from the start and a 20% bigger planet pop and economy base (which is actually even a 22% bonus in comparison to other PRTs because all players take OBRM as well in a small universe = 1.2 JoaT x 1.1 OBRM = 32%).

magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 00:34

That isn't 22%. It's 20% more than other OBRM races.


Correct.

JoaT with OBRM gets a 32% bonus.
But when comparing 132% with 110% it is only 20% more, yes.



[Updated on: Thu, 16 February 2017 06:09]

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Fri, 17 February 2017 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 00:34
Entropicurity wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 01:25
With HE, I've seen back in the day when the tri-immune monster was a big deal, then CA took claim, then the rather monstrous QS HE took on the focus again.

Eh. Tri-immunes are still significant (though not CA-level); they can reach 50k by 2450. And the QS/-f HE is fairly manageable if AccBBS is on; it's when it's left off that it becomes so scary.


HE -f is not manageable even if AccBBS is on, if the player knows what he do and the galaxy has some planets / Player .


ccmaster

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Sat, 18 February 2017 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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ccmaster wrote on Sat, 18 February 2017 06:51
HE -f is not manageable even if AccBBS is on, if the player knows what he do and the galaxy has some planets / Player .


ccmaster

In a duel, sure. In a PBEM, not so fast. -f HE must have at least 3x space to get parity with a developed +f, more like 4-5x to get an advantage (-f HE gets ~10k resources from the sort of space from which HG JoaT gets ~65k and 6% 3iHE ~75k). One kill is easy. Two is substantially easier with AccBBS off than on, though it's probably somewhat possible. 3-4 kills with AccBBS on before the HGs are ready for you... I'm rather sceptical.

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Sun, 19 February 2017 10:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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@magic

Only problem for the HE is that he has no gates.

Your numbers are again theoretic and far away from a ingame few. You have to count in armed ships in space , Minerals on Surface and most important Techlevels.


ccmaster

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Sun, 19 February 2017 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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ccmaster wrote on Sun, 19 February 2017 16:13
Only problem for the HE is that he has no gates.


And that's a huge disadvantage. It says a lot about the power of the QS-HE that this design can overcome this disadvantage.

It also defines the necessary strategy against QS-HEs: grab initiative, focus your power through gates, strike where you want to (and the HE is unprepared), if necessary change the theater of action (with gates you can, the HE is much slower to do so). Be fast because the longer you linger at one point in space, the stronger the HE gets there through constant incoming reinforcements.


And perhaps we should stop to forbid the QS-HE in games but take up the challenge and develop counter-designs, -strategies and -tactics. Everything else is, IMHO, like first inventing cavalry, cannons or tanks and then trying to exclude them from war because we don't like to change our ways of waging war.

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Sun, 26 February 2017 05:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
platon79 is currently offline platon79

 
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Nice read. Makes me feel the stars community is still very much alive and active Smile

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Re: How do you like your Germanium? Thu, 30 March 2017 07:06 Go to previous message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
> How do you like your Germanium?
It all depends on the race and the game year. Wink
- Since I play mostly +f races, I need to keep an eye on it.
- Imagine situation your HP race is the first to weapons and con 26. And when you start calculating how many Nubians you can field, you realize you have enough iron and bora for 2000, but germ for only 1000. Shocked Sad (Yeah, old game situation. Resolved it by getting Alien Miner from a passing MT. Laughing Twisted Evil )

BR, Iztok

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